Yuki/Gekko/Kasha Attack bonus Testing

[Yarko]

Ok, I finished collecting my data.
Results

First thing's first: the new calculation for pDIF(max) appears to be cRatio x 1.35, and pDIF(min) appears to be pDIF(max)-1. This needs more testing to be sure, but it fit the values I got for my melee strikes.

Observations:
I think it's clear to see that this is not just a % increase to pDIF, seeing as how pDIF(min) is not scaling the same as pDIF(max). Instead, the entire graph is shifting, indicating either a flat pDIF bonus, or a quantifiable "ignores defense." From my calculations, Kasha appears to ignore 35% or 130 defense, Yukikaze 28% or 100 defense, and Gekko 160 or 45%. Whether it's a percentage or exact number I can't say until we test on various mobs.

Conclusions:

• The new equation to calculate pDIF(max) appears to be cRatio*1.35 (more verification needed)
• Gekko, Yukikaze, and Kasha are NOT equal in terms of damage potential
• Gekko ignores either 45% or a flat 160 defense.
• Kasha ignores either 35% or a flat 130 defense.
• Yukikaze ignores either 28% or a flat 100 defense.
• The new pDIF cap on non critical hits is 2.7
• The variance in pDIF appears to now be 1.0 instead of .8 like it used to be

pDIF fluctuation formula is more complicated than that, and works at different tiers. That's why pDIF min and max don't scale at the same rate.

I gathered some pDIF fluctuation data and it looks like this:

cRatio = 1.130
pDIF(min) = 0,83 ~ pDIF(max) = 1,48

cRatio = 1.175
pDIF(min) = 0,86 ~ pDIF(max) = 1,52

cRatio = 1.466
pDIF(min) = 1,00 ~ pDIF(max) = 1,90

cRatio = 1.787
pDIF(min) = 1,34 ~ pDIF(max) = 2,23

cRatio = 2.145
pDIF(min) = 1,75 ~ pDIF(max) = 2,63

cRatio = capped
pDIF(min) = 1,85-1,87 ~ pDIF(max) = 2,700-2,750

It's hard to draw an exact formula for pDIF fluctuation with this low data, but it seems to be something like

if 1 < cRatio < ~1.75
pDIF(max) = 1.3 * cRatio
pDIF(min) = 0.7 * cRatio

if ~1.75 < cRatio < cap (2.2~2.3, haven't tested yet)
pDIF(max) = 1.23~1.25 * cRatio
pDIF(min) = pDIF(max) - 0,9

This would mean that when cRatio is between 1 and 2, pDIF fluctuation average value is exactly cRatio, but when cRatio exceeds 2, pDIF fluctuation average value is a bit higher than cRatio.

Considering your data it seems that Yukikaze has a 1.5 Ratio multiplier and Kasha 1.65 ish, which agrees with my new and more accurate yuki/kasha tests. And Gekko is definitely 2.

Even then, from what I've gathered (and sort of seen personally) if you had 900 attack, Gekko > Kaiten Hands down. it seriously seems liek there's a math error somewhere in Kaiten's math, which is why I am so interested in this thread. If there's any info I can get you or go out and collect that could get me an explaination on why I hit for zero to double digits on JoL with close to the best gear in the game, (maybe missing songs sure) or like max in the 300's on a mob like faf, versus doing 700 ish on JoL with Gekko or more on faf i'd be happy.... It has driven me nuts since I got the damn thing. It makes no sense how Gekko can do 100% to 8,000% more damage than kaiten on HNM and yet Kaiten does about 10% - 20% more on regular mobs.

I have never fought JoL as DD (always been tank), but the only reason you get that kind of dmg from Kaiten on him is an extremely low pDIF. According to Wiki JoL is only lv83, so since the correction to ATK/DEF Ratio isn't huge, JoL must have an insane defense. Do your melee hits do in the order of 0-30 damage too?

As for Fafnir, his level is rather high (88-90), thus you get a big penalization on your ATK/DEF Ratio, even though his defense is probably not that high.

Take the "ATK > (1,5 + Correction) * Mob's Def" formula I posted above, which isn't completely accurate till I find out/someone tests ATK/DEF Ratio cap and that I have estimated at 2.3;

on Fafnir, assuming he has about 370 defense, Kaiten will do more than Hagun Gekko only if your atk is higher than (1,5 + 0,7) * 370 = 814. And this is due to his high level, rather than his high defense.

On JoL, assuming he has about 500 defense and his level is really only 83, atk must be higher than (1,5 + 0,4) * 500 = 950 for Kaiten to outperform Hagun Gekko.

On something like Greater Colibris, which have 320 defense not counting Dia2 and are LV82, you need more than (1,5 + 0,35) * 320 = 592 attack

Rather than a math error, Kaiten most likely doesn't have the "attack boost" or multiplier that many other single hit WSs have (tachi YGK, spinning slash, ground strike, etc) which is rather dumb on SE part imo..
if you want to test it, parse 50ish or so Kaitens on DC-EM steelshells in Boyahda keeping your STR and attack constant (and in the 400-500 range), and we can see whether Kaiten has a low attack bonus or none at all.

[WraithLakshmi]

I thought the point was make sure that Scissor Guard WAS up specifically so your pDif WASN'T capped. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, I'll have to go back and do another set of Gekko with scissor guard up. As it turned out, Yukikaze and Kasha didn't cap out anyway, just Gekko.

if 1 < cRatio < ~1.75
pDIF(max) = 1.3 * cRatio
pDIF(min) = 0.7 * cRatio

This disagrees with your data for cRatio=1.13. According that that calculation, your pDIF(max) should be 1.47, but you had witnessed a hit of pDIF 1.48, so that can't be quite correct.

The reason why I think the new multiplier for 5/6 < cRatio < 2 is 1.35 is because 1) All the data I took for melee swings (which unfortunately I didn't save to post on here) fit in this, and 2) it works so nicely with the new pDIF cap of 2.7. Under the old cap of 2.4, this was achieved if your cRatio was 2 exactly, and under the new cap of 2.7, it would be also achieved at cRatio of 2. This can easily be disproved by testing with cRatio = 2, and cRatio higher than 2 and seeing if you have an increase in observed maximum pDIF, I might go try it later.

[Yarko]

This disagrees with your data for cRatio=1.13. According that that calculation, your pDIF(max) should be 1.47, but you had witnessed a hit of pDIF 1.48, so that can't be quite correct.

Those values were approximated, it comes from LV73 steelshells, where Weapon Damage + fSTR = 46, and ATK was 403. Hits were lowest 39 and highest 68, so:
cRatio = 403/354 = 1,138
pDIF(max) = 1,138 * 1.3 = 1,479
hit(max) = floor(46*1,479) = 68

pDIF(min) = 1,138 * 0.7 = 0,796
hit(min) = floor(46 * 0,796) = 36
the 36 is because either the formula for pDIF(min) is wrong, or the samples weren't enough (100ish)

The reason why I think the new multiplier for 5/6 < cRatio < 2 is 1.35 is because 1) All the data I took for melee swings (which unfortunately I didn't save to post on here) fit in this, and 2) it works so nicely with the new pDIF cap of 2.7. Under the old cap of 2.4, this was achieved if your cRatio was 2 exactly, and under the new cap of 2.7, it would be also achieved at cRatio of 2. This can easily be disproved by testing with cRatio = 2, and cRatio higher than 2 and seeing if you have an increase in observed maximum pDIF, I might go try it later.

I know it would fit nicely, but my results on cRatio = 2.15 already disprove it, as a capped pDIF never goes below 1.85.

Also, 2.2 * 1.25 = 2.750, which could be the actual new max and the reason why in the very first test I got a value for pDIF that exceeded 2,700 on WW mobs.

I'm rather fed up of testing and done for a while, so any help figuring out the new pDIF fluctuation formula is welcome .

[ringthree]

Thank you for the amazing and excellent testing work!
I have modified the BG wiki to reflect some of the results concluded here.

I have several questions to help people understand the meaning of these results.

1. What does all of this mean in layman's terms, besides the fact that Gekko is now proven to be the superior WS?

2. Does this testing suggest an adjustment in generally accepted notions of WS gear sets?

3. Can a tipping point be hypothesized between the benefits of STR vs. Attack for the tested WS's, if there is one?

4. Should we now test to see if these cRatio multipliers are also modified by TP?

5. Are the results for the new pDIF formula applicable across all two-handed weapons? I was able to determine that the formula had changed after the two-handed update, but I didn't have the knowledge or testing to determine it's new formula.

[Nameless]

I have a question, where does the lvl correlation fit into this? Let's say we are fighting a mob that's lvl 85 instead, I have attack 600, mob def is 300 (just fictional number, we know the defense for lvl 85 mob is higher). So my cratio is 2, at the time, do we apply the multiplier (let's say we are using gekko, so 2.0) here and then reduce 0.5 from lvl correlation? or can cratio temporary go over cap to 4.0 and then reduce 0.5 and then go back to being capped at 2.2 or 2.3?

In other words, is it possible to reach cratio cap when fighting mob lvl higher than you? If the multiplier can't temporarily break the cap, then the end result would be 2.2 or 2.3 - 0.5 instead of capping at 2.2 or 2.3.

Just to add another possibility, will it be 2.0 - 0.5 then the multiplier applies? In that case it would be 1.5 x 2 = 3, and then capped at 2.2 or 2.3.

Trying to figure this last thing out. Thank you.

[WraithLakshmi]

1. What does all of this mean in layman's terms, besides the fact that Gekko is now proven to be the superior WS?

2. Does this testing suggest an adjustment in generally accepted notions of WS gear sets?

3. Can a tipping point be hypothesized between the benefits of STR vs. Attack for the tested WS's, if there is one?

4. Should we now test to see if these cRatio multipliers are also modified by TP?

5. Are the results for the new pDIF formula applicable across all two-handed weapons? I was able to determine that the formula had changed after the two-handed update, but I didn't have the knowledge or testing to determine it's new formula.

1. Basically, against things where your pDIF is not capped, Gekko is going to outperform Kasha and Yukikaze.

2. I think most of us were already whoring out STR instead of attack, but if u weren't before, here's ur reason to start.

3. This is something that will change based on your stats and the mob you are fighting. In my case, adding 10 attack against colibri (without food or minuet) doesn't increase my pDIFmax because it's already capped. Adding 10 str would represent a 4.2% increase to damage from WSC, even though my fSTR is also capped. Basically, don't worry about attack, go for STR.

4. The only thing TP effects is fTP, so it won't effect anything having to do with pDIF.

5. I think so, but can't say for sure.

I have a question, where does the lvl correlation fit into this? Let's say we are fighting a mob that's lvl 85 instead, I have attack 600, mob def is 300 (just fictional number, we know the defense for lvl 85 mob is higher). So my cratio is 2, at the time, do we apply the multiplier (let's say we are using gekko, so 2.0) here and then reduce 0.5 from lvl correlation? or can cratio temporary go over cap to 4.0 and then reduce 0.5 and then go back to being capped at 2.2 or 2.3?

You've got it a little wrong. cRatio is the number you get AFTER you subtract level correction. ATK/DEF is just called Ratio. So, to have a capped cRatio against something level 85, you would need 2.5x the mob's defense in attack. If you had this, the bonus to Gekko would be negated, since you are already capped, which further illustrates why we don't need to wear attack gear for gekko, since you can cap it out at 1.5x the mob's defense in attack.

[Nameless]

So you are saying the multiplier of the like of gekko, SS, are applied after lvl correlation. And that ratio can be over 2.2 or 2.3, but cratio will be capped at 2.2 or 2.3. In other words, if ratio is capped at 2.2 or 2.3, then there is no way you can cap cratio on mob higher lvl than you. I just want to know the order which everything applies.

[Suiram]

2. Does this testing suggest an adjustment in generally accepted notions of WS gear sets?

I was wondering something related to this. Does that mean that in many situations, a domaru/domaru+1 is the best WS body for SAM? 2008 was the year of the Chasuble, after all, 2009 can be the year of the Domaru.

[lolwut]

I was wondering something related to this. Does that mean that in many situations, a domaru/domaru+1 is the best WS body for SAM? 2008 was the year of the Chasuble, after all, 2009 can be the year of the Domaru.

God, I hope not. I'd like to think most will stick with their Osodes and leave the Domaru on the gimps where they belong.

[Wolfknight]

I was wondering something related to this. Does that mean that in many situations, a domaru/domaru+1 is the best WS body for SAM? 2008 was the year of the Chasuble, after all, 2009 can be the year of the Domaru.

Osode or bust.

[Loziel]

I find it interesting that those Weaponskills secretly ignore defence with a juicy 75% Str mod which is unheard of for ANY other job while for the most part benefitting from the Hagun TP bonus and in some situations Overwhelm.

Drg's Equivalent WS (Wheeling Thrust) advertises Ignoring Defence as a feature and doesnt do it anywhere near as well as Gekko with its 50% str mod and consistant 1.75 mod regardless of TP.

SE's Golden Child shines again.

[WraithLakshmi]

So you are saying the multiplier of the like of gekko, SS, are applied after lvl correlation. And that ratio can be over 2.2 or 2.3, but cratio will be capped at 2.2 or 2.3. In other words, if ratio is capped at 2.2 or 2.3, then there is no way you can cap cratio on mob higher lvl than you. I just want to know the order which everything applies.

Ratio can be whatever the fuck it wants to be, lol. If you have a thousand times more attack than a mobs defense, Ratio will be 1000. Level correction is then applied to Ratio to get cRatio, which is capped at 2.0 (unless this has been changed too). So, in your example of a level 85 mob, the level correction will be .5, so you need a Ratio of 2.5 or greater to cap cRatio at 2.

For WS bodies, Osode is still king. The order I would put them in (for merits) is:

Osode > Hachiman +1 > Usukane > Hachiman >Haubergeon +1 > Byrnie +1 > Haubergeon > Byrnie

This is because you only need 381 attack to cap your pDIF on Gekko against greater colibri, which is easy to get. Str all the way.

[WraithLakshmi]

I find it interesting that those Weaponskills secretly ignore defence with a juicy 75% Str mod which is unheard of for ANY other job while for the most part benefitting from the Hagun TP bonus and in some situations Overwhelm.

Drg's Equivalent WS (Wheeling Thrust) advertises Ignoring Defence as a feature and doesnt do it anywhere near as well as Gekko with its 50% str mod and consistant 1.75 mod regardless of TP.

SE's Golden Child shines again.

Don't hate

[Loziel]

Don't hate the player hate the game

Fixed

[Yarko]

So you are saying the multiplier of the like of gekko, SS, are applied after lvl correlation. And that ratio can be over 2.2 or 2.3, but cratio will be capped at 2.2 or 2.3. In other words, if ratio is capped at 2.2 or 2.3, then there is no way you can cap cratio on mob higher lvl than you. I just want to know the order which everything applies.

as Wraith said, Ratio can be anything, and it's cRatio to be capped (thus after the correction).
I believe the multiplier is applied to the Ratio, and therefore be considered an attack bonus or defense negation... if it was applied after the correction takes place, the effects would be lower on high level monsters and it doesn't seem to be the case. This should be tested to be 100% sure though.

As for when attack is "enough" for Gekko I answered some posts back:

attack is going to be capped when cRatio, i.e. the value "(ATK/DEF * 2) - Lv Correction" exceeds 2.2 so assuming that:

- merits/limbus/dynamis/einherjar/etc mobs are around LV 83 and have about 330 defense ~430 attack will put you to the cap;

- HNMs like Cerberus/Khimaira/Ixion/Fafnir/Gods are around LV87 and have about 380 defense ~530 attack will put you to the cap;

- Wyrms/Kirin/JoL are around LV95 and have about 450 defense ~720 attack will be enough to hit the cap.

So yeah, this means that if you reach those attack values, you are better off using Osode and Smilo+1 for Gekko.

Before people ask, calculation for when attack is enough on SA+Gekko is similar: attack is capped when "(ATK/DEF * 2) + 1 - Lv Correction" exceeds 3.0 so ~500 attack on Khimaira/Ixion

[Nameless]

It doesn't seem right from the tests that I have done on merit bird camp tho. I understand that you guys are saying that Ratio has no cap and that the cap only applies to cRatio, but it doesn't agree with my parse.

The condition of the parse is one brd, march + min, no dia, no SE, 7% DA, no other buffs (not like it matters since my attack is capped under the 1.5 multiplier assumption). I spam SS under 576 total attack on my ws set with 139 str and 68 int, with average of around 110 tp when I trigger the ws, I use gorget and my base damage is 85.

With the above data, what do you think my estimated average SS should do against those birds? If the Ratio doesn't have a cap, which means my cratio should fall under 2.2 or 2.3 range, then my suggested SS average should be around 920 ish instead of the parsed 810 average, which matches well with 1.90 or 2.00 cRatio (assuming that Ratio has the same cap as cRatio, and that lvl correlation takes off 0.05 x 7 lvls off Ratio to become 1.9 to 2.0).

You can do the math, I don't know why the average doesn't fall under the 920 range, this is the only reason that I am think of.

[WraithLakshmi]

With the above data, what do you think my estimated average SS should do against those birds? If the Ratio doesn't have a cap, which means my cratio should fall under 2.2 or 2.3 range, then my suggested SS average should be around 920 ish instead of the parsed 810 average, which matches well with 1.90 or 2.00 cRatio (assuming that Ratio has the same cap as cRatio, and that lvl correlation takes off 0.05 x 7 lvls off Ratio to become 1.9 to 2.0).

You can do the math, I don't know why the average doesn't fall under the 920 range, this is the only reason that I am think of.

Ok, you're still not understanding. Let me walk you through the steps here.

1) Ratio = your attack / monster defense. There is no cap to this number, it is what it is.

2) LC = .05 - level difference (for melee)

3) cRatio = Ratio - LC (This number is capped at 2.0, meaning if Ratio - LC is higher than 2.0, it gets rounded down to 2.0)

So your cRatio is NOT in the 2.2-2.3 range, if it calculated out to be 2.2, it would be rounded down to 2.0.

[Yarko]

Ok, you're still not understanding. Let me walk you through the steps here.

1) Ratio = your attack / monster defense. There is no cap to this number, it is what it is.

2) LC = .05 - level difference (for melee)

3) cRatio = Ratio - LC (This number is capped at 2.0, meaning if Ratio - LC is higher than 2.0, it gets rounded down to 2.0)

So your cRatio is NOT in the 2.2-2.3 range, if it calculated out to be 2.2, it would be rounded down to 2.0.

Wraith, cRatio cap is definitely higher than 2, some of my tests showed it and not only both you and I had pDIF varying from 1.85ish to 2.75ish in capped situations (look at your gekko tests), but if the formula for pDIF fluctuation really was max= cRatio*1.35, min=max-1, your pDIF would range from 1.7 to 2.7 with an average of 2.2 with a cRatio of just 2.00, which is unbalanced.
The old formula had pDIF fluctuate between 1.6 and 2.4 when capped, with an average of 2.00, when cRatio is 2.00, which is balanced.

To answer Nameless: how many WSs did you have in your test? Can you link it please?
Rather than the average, that could be slightly off if not enough WSs were performed, try looking at your lowest and highest WS damage (of course this is not possible by just looking at parser results if you had DAs proc or used Souleater) and see if they are in the 1.85-2.75 pDIF range.

[WraithLakshmi]

Well, regardless of what cRatio's cap is now, the point is that Ratio doesn't have a cap. This doesn't really matter, though, since it gets capped after the next step in the calculation, which is cRatio.

[Yarko]

Done one more test in regards to capped pDIF / pDIF fluctuation using Soboro on WW monsters: lowest hit 97 (4 times), highest hit 142 (2 times), sample size 500 non critical hits.

Base damage for Soboro = 40 + floor(40/9)+8 = 52

pDIF(max): Since damage gets floored, pDIF(max) is
142,000/52 = 2,730 < pDIF(max) < 142,999 = 2,749

pDIF(min):
97,000/52 = 1,865 < pDIF(min) < 97,999/52 = 1,885
most likely goes down to 1,850 but the chances for my hits to be in the 1,850-1,865 pDIF range with a sample size of 500 were too low.

So, the formula for pDIF fluctuation for high end values seems to be
pDIF(max) = cRatio * 1.25 = 2.2 * 1.25 = 2.750
pDIF(min) = pDIF(max) - 0.9 = 1.850

I assume that the new cRatio cap is 2.2.