The "Should Tanks Blink" thread.

[Neosutra]

I want to get some feedback in a drama-free non derail of another thread on this topic, due to the emergence of this topic in the last few threads.

Now Im sure everyone here knows/hates/loves my opinion on blinking tanks. I wanted however to clarifty the good vs. the bad reasons to blink and to not blink, and to talk about what equipment sets are best for plds that choose not to blink.

To begin, lets cut the shit and say that "No tanking style is wrong", regardless of which one is technically more efficient, and the tradeoffs from both.

I think everyone here understands that blinking is "more efficient". The question is wether that extra efficiency provides superior tanking ability and hate keeping ability, or wether the hate mechanics in this game make an un-needed effort.

So lets start with the benefits of each:

Blinking tank:
1. Emnity actions generate more emnity (up to 20-30 more emnity based on what the person idles in).
2. When shadows are down, damage reduction sets reduce the amount of hate you lose via taking damage and proper shield skill sets help you get your shadows up better.
3. Lower recast on flash/utsu allows a person to get to the hate cap faster and maintain higher survivability via shadows being ready more often.
4. You actually get to use the many different situational peices that plds get.

Non blinking tanks:
1. You dont run the risk that your mages targeting is screwed in a high stress fight where the tank really needed that cure/na spell/erase/haste.
2. You can focus on other things besides swapping between idle/cast/emnity sets every few seconds.
3. (While I dont agree with this one, Ill put it down because it was listed a dozen time): If a tank already keeps hate w/o swaps, why swap?

Invalid excuses to not blink:
1. Mages cant target (tank name in macros, new targeting fixes, and blinkmenot covers just about everyone from CPU to xbox to ps2).
2. You're already at the cap - You dont cap emnity till several minutes into a fight (even with cure swaps). This shouldnt be used an a valid reason until the fight has been going for a decent amount of time.

I wont go into the cons for each set, as they basically are just the lack of the benefits listed for the other category. What I wanted to clear up, is removing some of the BAD reasons to blink or not blink, and focus on the good reasons to blink or not blink (and establish what a non blinking pld should probably wear(situational)).

Good reasons listed on why blinking may be overated:
Once at the hate cap (that a pld can reach reasonably quickly via cure swaps and a good haste build), huge amounts of emnity boosts may not grant you a noticably large improvement in hate generation. The argument here is wether a pld can continually recap their hate lost from pure decay and damage taken via cure swaps/flashs/jas, or wether a greater deal of emnity is required:

i.e. Does a pld really need any emnity once they are at the threshold and are playing the game of bouncing hate back to the top (i.e. should a pld move stricly to damage reduct set, as any hate action will keep them at the top at this point).

I would argue that this is typically the case, but having the extra emnity will allow you to recover the lost emnity from decay/damage taken more quickly in events where you are inevitably taking more damage than just a few lost shadows, and thus not staying as close to the cap as you would like (i.e. mobs with multiple AOEs that hit through shadows and/or wipe shadows and mobs that Terror). This combined with lower recasts on flash and lower damage taken via lower recast on utsu and damage reduct builds will keep that gap from the emnity cap lower.

My main annoyance with these debates, is while there are several people with valid excuses why they dont blink, there are many people that give really bad ones, and a pld that hasnt been playing for long may follow those bad guidelines as fact. (for example, in another thread someone stated that having haste for flash is silly because you dont want to use flash whenever it is up, or wont always be able too. It is statements like this that delude the argument). Not blinking for mages is also a lower concern now with targeting fixes. In reality, the only true valid excuse for not blinking is the possibility that the emnity generation/hate keeping ability over time is not effected once at hate cap (other than slower recasts on flash/utsu). The "I keep hate fine" arguement.

As Merona stated in a thread a while back however, this gap may be exagerated, and as it is situational and based on how much AoE the NM you are fighting has, the emnity gear swaps at hate cap and damage reduct may show minor or even un-noticable improvements.

My personal opinion, as most of you probably know, is that a tank that doesnt blink is just as bad as any other job that doesnt blink for WS/JAs/whatever. Even if you already hold hate fine, why wouldnt you want to be better?

One thing that I would say however, is that I would be hard pressed to argue against having the lowest utsu recast possible. This would lead into the discussion of "what a pld should idle in if they dont blink". I would say that a typical haste build, with situational swaps of kaiser head/af+1 feet, and baha mask, would be a standard build for most non blinking plds to wear. But what are the opinions of the plds here that dont blink?

What do you wear, if you chose a full time set(and specific NMs if you change your equip alot based on mob).

[sleekmotorwurkz]

I blink like a christmas tree for all the reasons you put in the benefits for blinking tanks.

That said,

Originally Posted by Neosutra

Non blinking tanks:
1. You dont run the risk that your mages targeting is screwed in a high stress fight where the tank really needed that cure/na spell/erase/haste.

Even if its a lot to ask for your mages to use a specific cure macro for each tank, which it really shouldnt be... If they are using <stpt> or <stal> blinking doesnt cancel it. If they arent, they should be.

and

Originally Posted by Neosutra

2. You can focus on other things besides swapping between idle/cast/emnity sets every few seconds.

I would say most tanks that blink to an extent where whms have a problem curing them, either have their swaps done through spellcast or in the specific macro they use. Example Im not gonna hit a macro for an enmity gearset, then sentinel, I would have the swaps in the sentinel macro. Thats just me though, I could be wrong.

[Neosutra]

I didnt really include mage targeting as a valid excuse anymore.

[Drex]

Every thread is a "should tanks blink thread"

I'm a RDM, and when I'm tanking I blink like mad. Have never had complaints from my healers (actually, compliments if anything), and have never died because I couldn't get a status removed/cured in time. If you really need a status cure or whatever and feel you will die if you don't get it RIGHT THIS SECOND, just stop blinking for 2 seconds and then go back to blinking once you got what you needed.

[Tubbers]

IMO, you should be blinking so fast so often that you don't even render on other peoples' screens.

[Neosutra]

Originally Posted by Drex

Every thread is a "should tanks blink thread"

I'm a RDM, and when I'm tanking I blink like mad. Have never had complaints from my healers (actually, compliments if anything), and have never died because I couldn't get a status removed/cured in time. If you really need a status cure or whatever and feel you will die if you don't get it RIGHT THIS SECOND, just stop blinking for 2 seconds and then go back to blinking once you got what you needed.

Thats pretty much why I wanted to write this out. That and Im kinda tired of arguing with other plds in other threads about it. Im sure they are good plds, but I want to remove the bias about blinking or not blinking and ensure the community as a whole understands valid and invalid reasons to do either.

[Vyerz]

Would be nice to have a non de-railed post about this.

I think the point about not needed to blink once you've hit a certain cap is pretty solid, but if you're fighting something that can hate-reset you'd probably want all the emnity swaps you can get eh?

To most healers: Lets assume that you're -not- using Blinkmenot as a healer
1. Do people disappear for long periods of time or short periods when they blink?
2. Do you Tab or use the fkeys, or do /ta "Insertname" ?
These are questions you should be asking your healer as a pld before considering blinking

Honestly the Best Pld I ever had in my linkshell never blinked, never lost hate, and did gear swap but only belt ears rings neck and back.
Would usually get hit once everyone once in a while to cure himself for more hate

Oh, and don't blink while you kite without someone using blinkmenot

[Tubbers]

Kite blinking is a great way to not stop while using JAs, it's extremely useful, don't tell people not to do that. Also with <stpt> and <stal> blinking really isn't an issue.

[Cream Soda]

not only is there blink me not, there is also <stpt>. If the gear swaps are already in your macros and you're not manually swapping them out >.>, I see 0 advantage to not changing gear.

[Vyerz]

wait, wut. Sorry I've been gone for a month or two, did they finally fix something? ..The targeting system perhaps?

[Charismatic]

Why yes, yes... they added something useful.

[Albatross]

They added <stpt> and <stal> which works directly off of the pt / alliance list, instead of targeting the player.

[Tubbers]

Originally Posted by Vyerz

wait, wut. Sorry I've been gone for a month or two, did they finally fix something? ..The targeting system perhaps?

They did! <stpt> and <stal> target people from the PT/Alliance window, blinking will not de-target.

[Vyerz]

........*Climbs to the top of a mountain*
LET THIS DAY BE KNOWN AS THE DAY WE CAN FINALLY CALL ALL PALADINS GIMP
*sounds the horn*

FLAME ON!!

Sorry for derail, I'm excited.

Please continue

[megido]

In our linkshell we tend to ride the hate threshold pretty close. The efficiency of being able to utilize gearswap for every action/event is undeniable. If you're support is equipped to handle the blinking (which they should be), there is no reason not to use spellcast to maximize the effect of every action you make.

Granted though plds need to be mindful how they switch their gear as well. Our PLDs try to keep the maximum amount of HP during gearswaps as well. This is pretty crucial for races that doesn't have as high a HP as others.

Even if you are competent without gearswaps, it doesn't mean there is no merit in the advantages you get from using it. It's more a behavioral issue, some people feel content doing what they do, while others will try to maximize what they can do.

I'd like to think people who spellcast are the latter. It's also wise to constantly iterate over one's xml and to share that across other members as well which has become common practice in our shell.

[TacoTaru]

Originally Posted by Neosutra

2. You can focus on other things besides swapping between idle/cast/emnity sets every few seconds.

I'm a little confused by this. What else would you be focusing on besides doing your PLD thing? All of my macros that I blink in have a specific purpose involving holding/generating hate. I guess I'm confused because I don't blink just to blink and all of my macros that swap gear have a specific action tailored to them, so I'm not sure what else there would be to focus on.

[BrillCS]

Blink away, without a doubt. Except for maybe city Dynamis, it's /Nin all the time.

[Furionstormrage]

I blink mostly to make up for my lack of gear.

As far as endgame PLDs go, I'm currently pretty NQ and I'm not too comfortable keeping one set equipped all of the time, I feel that I would not be able to cap hate and minimize my damage taken to an acceptable level with what I have available without blinking.

I also tend to play PLD pretty defensively on most things, a few fights I'll tank in all out DD gear but for the most part I'm making full use of my JAs in a defensive manner. (ie, Shield Bash to Stun something when I need a second, Rampart with all the VIT gear that I have to absorb something that's going to hit me, Sentinel when I'm getting creamed)

Of course, shit is situational and I don't always save JAs for defensive purposes, Sentinel moreso than others. (I tend to hit Sentinel every single time it's ready as long as my co-tank can manage)

That's my generalized reasoning for blinking a lot, I like to make myself as efficient as possible and it wasn't a problem for my backline before the update, that was just icing on the cake.

I'm also not one to criticize anyone else for their tanking choices, unless it's just blatantly stupid, but I'll tend to question anyone who feels that they have learned it all and have nothing else to learn about any job, I'll be the first to ask for any input to possibly increase my tanking ability by any large or minute amount.

[kandiekane]

The question of should tank blink is misleading. The real question is to what degree should a tank be blinking?

All pld's macro in gear when they use JA's. They are on 4-5 minute recast so it's not a problem.

The real debate is in flash, utsu, and cure. You use these the most (almost every 2-3 seconds). If you idle in 12% haste, some choose 15%, how much will 5% haste shave off of flash/utsu and does it make up for the enmity lost from bmask/assjamer?

[Callisto]

Originally Posted by TacoTaru

I'm a little confused by this. What else would you be focusing on besides doing your PLD thing? All of my macros that I blink in have a specific purpose involving holding/generating hate. I guess I'm confused because I don't blink just to blink and all of my macros that swap gear have a specific action tailored to them, so I'm not sure what else there would be to focus on.

It might sound odd, but just out of habit from being a leader for events I have this obs/comp thing of having to know where people are and what's going on with every part of the fight. I rotate my camera around a lot to keep an eye on where my mages/DDs are standing and watching chatlog to make sure people are doing things properly. It's a non-tanking RDM habit but I can't really break out of it now that I've started tanking things.

That said I don't have blinks in my individual spells/JAs, only non-blink things swap into those(not counting Rampart and Utsusemis, those have shield/haste/yada) unless I'm in my kiting book, which is pretty much a mirror of my normal macros but with intentional swaps to use JAs while running. I have macros to change between gear sets, all my blink swaps are in those. Typically I switch to a full enmity set before using a JA or using Atonement...sometimes either I'm just comfortable with my current hate, in kind of an ohshit mode where I just want to get the ability/spell off safely without worrying about optimizing it's output, feeling a bit lazy, or(this is kind of a weak excuse, but) I have a full MP pool and don't want to swap to another set that dumps 80+ MP until I lay a Cure 4 or something on someone.

I typically do switch sets and blink very often, my g/f is usually the main WHM and plays on consoles, now that she's comfortable with handling blinking tanks I'm not worried about blinking like all hell, but I do need to update her macros to <stpt> and <stal>.

Side question, I asked in randomer but didn't see a full answer: can <stal> target party members and alliance members, or only alliance members outside of the party?

[ninjafox]

Honestly though, its not just tanks that blink on everything. With the exception of RNG, on a job like DRK, I'm blinking almost every 3 seconds doing something different. I don't think it should be so much of a focus on tanks since I think it spreads across all jobs with the exception of RNG really

[Callisto]

The difference is that historically mages and support weren't to worried about targeting their DRKs in an emergency.

[Vyerz]

I've never got this.. why do people idle in haste? I would be idling in Oshi gear until I had to do something

[Callisto]

Well not sure about before, but I idle in Haste/Acc now for Atonement TP.

[Hosom]

I idle in haste for the same reason as Calli, though... I'm not quite sure why some idle in Walmart Turban.

[Furionstormrage]

I idle in either full blown DD gear or full blown Shield gear, depends on the fight.
(Exceptions being Parade Gorget/Ethereal, few others, shits situational)

[[Cookies]]

Originally Posted by Vyerz

I've never got this.. why do people idle in haste? I would be idling in Oshi gear until I had to do something

So you swing faster. Before it was Chivalry/Spirits Within, now it's Chivalry/Atonement.

[Callisto]

Originally Posted by Hosom

I idle in haste for the same reason as Calli, though... I'm not quite sure why some idle in Walmart Turban.

Sometimes for inventory reasons I don't want to bring my Askar hat along, and sometimes I don't want to ditch the HP/MP for a very minor boost in TP gain.

Usually as /NIN I idle in:

W.Turban/PCC/Hollow/Loq
Gallant(all I got Q_Q)/Askar/Ecphoria/Woodsman(acc rings situational, sometimes I don't have room)
Boxer's/Swift/Valor(again all I got)/Dusk

I have a macro that basically just toggles PCC/Parade as well. I have Hauby for body, though still not quite comfortable in using it for larger fights. Eventually I'd like to save for an Avalon. Edit: Yes I have 0 Homam, lol.

[Hosom]

I'm completely different >.>

IR Cause Bahamut is a drag queen/Ritter Gorget/Ethereal, situational/Loq

Valor because Dex is cool/Homam/Herc, sometimes other stuff, depends/Sattva because real men don't need Rajas Rings.

Resentment/Swift/Situational, but IR/Crimson most of the time cause Omega is a dirty whore/Homam

[Hosom]

Also wanted that sometimes I use my Fort Torque, situational as well >.>;