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  1. #321

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagamaki
    Also as a sidenote, SE needs to expand merits again so bad, I'm down to spending merits on ninjutsu effects and san spells, wtf... Sure I'll get a 5th job category when I finish BST, but then what the hell am I gonna do with BST merits.
    I keep hopeing every patch for the 2nd tier merits for BLU/COR/PUP with no luck. I wouldn't hold my breath on merits beyond those for a long LONG time. Not like we need them. Every mob in the game other than AV is too weak as it is.

  2. #322
    Fake Numbers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagamaki
    Any RDM volunteers for going up there on Seraph?
    Will a WHM suffice?

  3. #323

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvrdragon
    First thing being I've never PTed in or even been to Jade Sepulcher, and I really have no idea what the mobs are like there. From reading your post I'm assuming it's mostly puks and mamool, but is there anything different about them or are they basically just carbon copies of the ones in Thickets? For example, puks in Thickets and puks in Mamook aren't exactly the same (puks in Mamool have a type of dispelga wind attack; Ill wind I believe).
    I don't think he meant IN Jade Sepulcher. More likely he meant the Bhaflau Thickets camp at the zone-line TO Jade Sepulcher (The back of the Mamool Ja Staging Point camp, past the Skoffins or whatever the fuck they're called these days)
    I really didn't even know what or where Jade Sepulcher was until he mentioned it and I looked at region info lol.. But yeah, so is this basically another way of saying the north camp at the staging point? If so then we were fighting the exact same mobs for both of our tests.

  4. #324
    Sea Torques
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    Yes.

  5. #325

    I started doing some calculations to verify the formulas gobli lists for mob attributes and def/eva, I'm not sure if people have tried using those much so before I spend too much time on them, if anyone tried experimenting with them please post what you found out, or a link to those experiments.

    A lot of gobli's data has been thoroughly translated and tested (such as WS info), but I haven't seen much info about the formulas for those aspects.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagamaki
    A lot of gobli's data has been thoroughly translated and tested (such as WS info), but I haven't seen much info about the formulas for those aspects.
    You mean whether gorget fTP bonus applies on subsequent hit of multi hit or not?

    I got more basic question :
    - How could you guess the mob VIT with just 2 digit range? (i.e. 68~69, and 66~67?). I understand if you're using ranged attack, you can guess that accurate. However, with melee, your best case range for guessing mob VIT is within 4 integer range
    - uhh.. how do you calculate h2h base damage again? 0.11*h2hskill + something?
    something = ???

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by VZX
    something = ???
    3, according to wiki.

  8. #328

    Quote Originally Posted by VZX
    You mean whether gorget fTP bonus applies on subsequent hit of multi hit or not?

    I got more basic question :
    - How could you guess the mob VIT with just 2 digit range? (i.e. 68~69, and 66~67?). I understand if you're using ranged attack, you can guess that accurate. However, with melee, your best case range for guessing mob VIT is within 4 integer range
    That last post was about gobli's A B C D E eva/def formulas, and A B C D E F G attribute (STR VIT AGI and so on) formulas. This thread covers a lot of topics, in this case I wasn't talking about gorgets. After my tests with AF and Backhand, the fTP only applying to first hit is no longer a maybe as far as I'm concerned anyway, the stuff still to test about the gorgets is the acc.

    For the VIT, there was actually a calculation error in what I posted, I ran into it while trying to get the VIT of some other things, I went back and edited the post to fix that (specifically, the estimated VIT of the lv77-78 ones is 77, and the lv79-80 ones is 80). It didn't affect the other data, was just some numbers in the wrong spot.

    The way I get the exact number requires assuming the fSTR formulas are exact, since they are an approximation the specific value could be off.

    But assuming they are exact, you can get a specific number even when using melee attacks by adjusting your STR (dSTR) in increments of 1 until the mode jumps to the next value, meaning you bumped fSTR over to the next value. Then you just use the lowest possible dSTR that will produce the new fSTR, and substract that from your STR.

    For the lv77 golems, that was:

    STR78+21 (99) > Mode 64, fSTR 6, dSTR 20-23
    STR78+22 (100) > Mode 64, fSTR 6, dSTR 20-23
    STR78+23 (101) > Mode 65, fSTR 7, dSTR 24-27

    100-23 = 77
    101-24 = 77

    Any value for VIT besides 77 would move the boundary up or down according to strict application of fSTR.

  9. #329

    collected some data last night

    (Mamook)
    105str -> mode 68 (cap) on spinner

    (MMJ SP)
    103str -> mode 67 on sea puk
    107str -> mode 68 (cap) on sea puk
    105str -> mode 64 on nin mamool

    (KRT)
    95str = 75 (67 before blunt bonus) on spartoi mage
    105str = 76 (68, cap, before blunt bonus) on spartoi mage
    95str = 69 (62 before blunt bonus) on spartoi warrior
    105str = 72 (64 before blunt bonus) on spartoi warrior

  10. #330
    Melee Summoner
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    Before I begin my post I just wanted to give a big THANK YOU for all the hard work you guys have put into the amount of testing that you've done.

    I'm just wondering if it's possible to come up with some general conclusions after the amount of tests done so far. And have them in one spot, as well as being easy to read (for the player that hasn't seen math like this since high school).

    Correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am), but this is what I have gathered out of everything so far.

    Dex plays a bigger roll in Crit% then previously thought, but seems to have a hard cap at ~30% no matter what you do. (I'm fairly sure that I understood that stuff right)

    The Sea Gorget/Torque testing that Nagamaki did was a lot harder for me to understand. But from what I think I understood, Sea Torques are slightly better than Sea Gorgets for multi-hit WS. Where as (at least according to the people I've talked to about it) it was previously thought that Gorget > all for every WS. I'm really not sure if I understood the results that Nagamaki posted from his testing on Enkidu(s) correctly or not. Now I'm not sure if I missed it, but are both Gorget and Torque (still considered) superior to other Neck Pieces that could be worn during multi-hit WS (PCC, Chiv Chain, lolSpike Necklace)?

  11. #331

    I've done some tests and calculations to try and verify the gobli monster attribute and eva/def formulas, in the interest of figuring out monster VIT and AGI based on level and type. The attribute one took trial and error, mainly due to some bad assumptions based on garbled translation, but it looks like I have it down in proper working order.

    Translation was done with babelfish and manual translation for the katakana game terms, so it isn't perfect.



    Enemy attributes (translated from gobli)

    Like for PCs, you can calculate them with

    Race Ranking + Main Job Ranking + Support Job Ranking * Support Job Revision

    Unlike PCs, the growth does not decline at high level (past 61?)

    Code:
    Rank Value
    A    5+(Lv-1)*0.50
    B    4+(Lv-1)*0.45
    C    4+(Lv-1)*0.40
    D    3+(Lv-1)*0.35
    E    3+(Lv-1)*0.30
    F    2+(Lv-1)*0.25
    G    2+(Lv-1)*0.20
    SJ revision is 0 at low lv. From Lv.30, SJ revision is 0.5 (half of main), but depending upon the area it differs even between monsters of the same level.

    Most monsters are WAR/WAR.



    Verification

    The SJ thing was pretty confusing at first because babelfish garbled it, I'm pretty sure its accurate in the current wording though.

    Gobli's mob list says golem VIT is Rank C. Job swap tests show (PC) WAR VIT is Rank D.

    Code:
       A  B  C  D  E  F  G
    77 43 38 34 29 25 21 17
    78 43 38 34 29 26 21 17
    79 44 39 35 30 26 21 17
    80 44 39 35 30 26 21 17
    77. 34 + 29 + 14 = 77
    78. 34 + 29 + 14 = 77
    79. 35 + 30 + 15 = 80
    80. 35 + 30 + 15 = 80

    The numbers I got from using the mode were 77, 77, 80, 80. In other words, perfect match.





    Enemy defense and evasion (also from gobli, its also on the wiki under Defense, just putting the info here since I'll be using it)

    Defense: (f(Lv, Race Defense Rank) + 8 + VIT/2 + Job Traits) * Race Trait
    Evasion: (f(Lv, Job Evasion Rank) + AGI/2 + Job Traits

    Code:
    Rank\Lv Lv1-50	        Lv51+
    A       6+[(Lv-1)*3.0]	153+[(Lv-50)*5.0]?
    B       5+[(Lv-1)*2.9]	147+[(Lv-50)*4.9]?
    C       5+[(Lv-1)*2.8]	142+[(Lv-50)*4.8]
    D       4+[(Lv-1)*2.7]	136+[(Lv-50)*4.7]?
    E       4+[(Lv-1)*2.5]	126+[(Lv-50)*4.5]
    Race Defense Rank is typically C. Crawlers are E, Greater Birds are B.

    Race Trait is typically 1. Bugards, buffaloes and antlions are approx 1.2 (1+51/256)



    Verification

    I used the Enkidus I already mapped VIT for. I got their Def and Eva through /c and gear swap spam before I started doing those gorget tests last week.

    (f(Lv, Race Defense Rank C) + 8 + VIT/2 + 10) * 1

    77. 271 + 8 + 38 + 10 = 327
    78. 276 + 8 + 38 + 10 = 332
    79. 281 + 8 + 40 + 10 = 339
    80. 286 + 8 + 40 + 10 = 344

    /c defense results were 327, 332, 339 and 344, exact match. That supports other data further.

    Now to try the evasion formula, again using the Enkidus. AGI is unknown, but if the formula is accurate then it should tell me their exact AGI.

    ( 200+ (Combat Skill-200)*0.92 + DEX/2 + (+accuracy from gear) + (+accuracy from trait and/or ability) ) * (1+ percentage from food effect)

    Using the wiki's acc formula above (skill 292 DEX68), the /c evasion for each lv was :

    77. 318 + 3 - 10 = 311
    78. 318 + 8 - 10 = 316
    79. 318 + 14 - 10 = 322
    79. 318 + 19 - 10 = 327

    f(Lv, Job Evasion Rank C) + AGI/2

    77. 311 = 271 + AGI/2
    40 = AGI/2
    80 = AGI
    78. 316 = 276 + AGI/2
    40 = AGI/2
    80 = AGI
    79. 322 = 281 + AGI/2
    41 = AGI/2
    82 = AGI
    80. 327 = 286 + AGI/2
    41 = AGI/2
    82 = AGI

    So since attributes are rounded down, 77-78s would have 80-81 AGI and 79-80s would have 82-83.

    Code:
       A  B  C  D  E  F  G
    77 43 38 34 29 25 21 17
    78 43 38 34 29 26 21 17
    79 44 39 35 30 26 21 17
    80 44 39 35 30 26 21 17
    Considering WAR AGI is Rank C,

    34+17 = 51, 51 + 29 = 80
    34+17 = 51, 51 + 29 = 80
    35+17 = 52, 52 + 30 = 82

    So if golems are Rank D agility, its a perfect match again.



    So conclusion after that is that Gobli's formulas are quite accurate, so figuring out mob stats (for purpose of gear adjustments) shouldn't be an issue as long as they're not ITG. Even for ITG you can get to the values, its just more work and more different tests needed.

  12. #332
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    Thanks again Naga for playing with Gobli's developed formula
    I did try some of them long time ago. However, since my calculation doesn't match to whatever Studio Gobli have in their VIT/defense table. I didn't put it on wiki/ my ffxi doc

    Time for detailed question on "how-you-get-that-number" again from me
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagamaki

    Enemy attributes (translated from gobli)
    Code:
    Rank Value
    A    5+(Lv-1)*0.50
    B    4+(Lv-1)*0.45
    C    4+(Lv-1)*0.40
    D    3+(Lv-1)*0.35
    E    3+(Lv-1)*0.30
    F    2+(Lv-1)*0.25
    G    2+(Lv-1)*0.20
    Code:
       A  B  C  D  E  F  G
    77 43 38 34 29 25 21 17
    78 43 38 34 29 26 21 17
    79 44 39 35 30 26 21 17
    80 44 39 35 30 26 21 17
    77. 34 + 29 + 14 = 77
    78. 34 + 29 + 14 = 77
    79. 35 + 30 + 15 = 80
    80. 35 + 30 + 15 = 80

    The numbers I got from using the mode were 77, 77, 80, 80. In other words, perfect match.
    How do you get the 2nd and 3rd number? (can you show me the detailed calculation?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagamaki
    Enemy defense and evasion (also from gobli, its also on the wiki under Defense, just putting the info here since I'll be using it)

    Defense: (f(Lv, Race Defense Rank) + 8 + VIT/2 + Job Traits) * Race Trait

    Code:
    Rank\Lv Lv1-50	        Lv51+
    A       6+[(Lv-1)*3.0]	153+[(Lv-50)*5.0]?
    B       5+[(Lv-1)*2.9]	147+[(Lv-50)*4.9]?
    C       5+[(Lv-1)*2.8]	142+[(Lv-50)*4.8]
    D       4+[(Lv-1)*2.7]	136+[(Lv-50)*4.7]?
    E       4+[(Lv-1)*2.5]	126+[(Lv-50)*4.5]
    Race Defense Rank is typically C. Crawlers are E, Greater Birds are B.

    Race Trait is typically 1. Bugards, buffaloes and antlions are approx 1.2 (1+51/256)

    Verification

    I used the Enkidus I already mapped VIT for. I got their Def and Eva through /c and gear swap spam before I started doing those gorget tests last week.

    (f(Lv, Race Defense Rank C) + 8 + VIT/2 + 10) * 1

    77. 271 + 8 + 38 + 10 = 327
    78. 276 + 8 + 38 + 10 = 332
    79. 281 + 8 + 40 + 10 = 339
    80. 286 + 8 + 40 + 10 = 344

    /c defense results were 327, 332, 339 and 344, exact match. That supports other data further.
    The 10 is written somewhere in Gobli's memo? or you just do some "more-or-less" trial and error on this?

  13. #333

    Quote Originally Posted by VZX
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagamaki

    Enemy attributes (translated from gobli)
    Code:
    Rank Value
    A    5+(Lv-1)*0.50
    B    4+(Lv-1)*0.45
    C    4+(Lv-1)*0.40
    D    3+(Lv-1)*0.35
    E    3+(Lv-1)*0.30
    F    2+(Lv-1)*0.25
    G    2+(Lv-1)*0.20
    Code:
       A  B  C  D  E  F  G
    77 43 38 34 29 25 21 17
    78 43 38 34 29 26 21 17
    79 44 39 35 30 26 21 17
    80 44 39 35 30 26 21 17
    77. 34 + 29 + 14 = 77
    78. 34 + 29 + 14 = 77
    79. 35 + 30 + 15 = 80
    80. 35 + 30 + 15 = 80
    How do you get the 2nd and 3rd number? (can you show me the detailed calculation?)
    1st column : Race Rank (C, from gobli's data)
    2nd column : Main Job Rank (D, since WAR job is D rank VIT)
    3rd column : Support Job Rank (D) * SJ Revision (0.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by VZX
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagamaki
    Enemy defense and evasion (also from gobli, its also on the wiki under Defense, just putting the info here since I'll be using it)

    Defense: (f(Lv, Race Defense Rank) + 8 + VIT/2 + Job Traits) * Race Trait

    Code:
    Rank\Lv Lv1-50	        Lv51+
    A       6+[(Lv-1)*3.0]	153+[(Lv-50)*5.0]?
    B       5+[(Lv-1)*2.9]	147+[(Lv-50)*4.9]?
    C       5+[(Lv-1)*2.8]	142+[(Lv-50)*4.8]
    D       4+[(Lv-1)*2.7]	136+[(Lv-50)*4.7]?
    E       4+[(Lv-1)*2.5]	126+[(Lv-50)*4.5]
    Race Defense Rank is typically C. Crawlers are E, Greater Birds are B.

    Race Trait is typically 1. Bugards, buffaloes and antlions are approx 1.2 (1+51/256)

    Verification

    I used the Enkidus I already mapped VIT for. I got their Def and Eva through /c and gear swap spam before I started doing those gorget tests last week.

    (f(Lv, Race Defense Rank C) + 8 + VIT/2 + 10) * 1

    77. 271 + 8 + 38 + 10 = 327
    78. 276 + 8 + 38 + 10 = 332
    79. 281 + 8 + 40 + 10 = 339
    80. 286 + 8 + 40 + 10 = 344

    /c defense results were 327, 332, 339 and 344, exact match. That supports other data further.
    The 10 is written somewhere in Gobli's memo? or you just do some "more-or-less" trial and error on this?
    WAR Defense Bonus Job Trait. Since most mobs are WAR/WAR, most mobs have this trait built it. At first I was puzzled when my numbers meant they had 20 extra VIT, then I remember WAR10 trait while looking at the full formula. They didn't put Job Trait in it for no reason.

  14. #334
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    If thats correct about Enkidus' AGI, would that mean that Colibris, a higher level and higher evasion mob, might have 90ish AGI, and the Crit tier is DEX 1 1/3x mob's AGI?

  15. #335

    Knowing Enkidus' AGI, if there really is a DEX tier effected by the balance of your DEX vs the mob's AGI it could be pretty easily tested now.

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKenshin
    Knowing Enkidus' AGI, if there really is a DEX tier effected by the balance of your DEX vs the mob's AGI it could be pretty easily tested now.
    They/we don't know what are the VIT/def rank of Colibri though.

  17. #337

    Greater Colibris

    These are their stats, from /c and mode.

    GC Lv81
    Def 322
    Eva 336
    VIT calculated from mode = 67

    GC Lv82
    Def 327
    Eva 341
    VIT calculated from mode = 67

    Defense: (f(Lv, Race Defense Rank) + 8 + VIT/2 + Job Traits) * Race Trait

    Say they are WAR/WAR, with standard C Def (and WAR's C evasion)

    Using the Lv81 mobs:

    290 + 8 + VIT/2 + 10 = 322
    308 + VIT/2 = 322
    VIT/2 = 14
    VIT = 28
    Clearly, that is wrong.

    There's 2 possible variables here. First, Def rank could be lower (D or E) and second, they might not be WAR mobs, which would remove the Defense Bonus trait.

    Removing the Def trait means a gain of 20 VIT is needed to balance it out. For Rank C, that would mean 48 VIT which is still well below the value calculated with the mode.

    Rank D
    f = 281
    That is 9 less than for Rank C, which would mean a gain of 18 VIT to compensate, adding up to 46. Still too low.

    Rank D without Defense Bonus would add another 20 VIT for a total of 66-67. This matches the mode VIT, could be the right answer.

    Rank E
    265
    25 less than for Rank C, so +50 VIT adding up to 78. This is over the value obtained from mode.

    Rank E without Defense Bonus would add 20 to that for 98, even more off.

    So out of those 6 possibilities, only racial Rank D defense combined with lack of Defense Bonus matches the VIT obtained using the mode. To make sure I didn't mix anything up, calculating from scratch for both GC levels using Rank D and no Def Bonus:

    Lv81
    281 + 8 + VIT/2 = 322
    289 + VIT/2 = 322
    VIT/2 = 33
    VIT = 66-67

    Lv82
    286 + 8 + VIT/2 = 327
    294 + VIT/2 = 327
    VIT/2 = 33
    VIT = 66-67

    If accurate, that means they aren't WAR/WAR. I was kinda expecting that since they can be Aspired. Calculating their racial ranks on VIT and AGI will require figuring out their job first. Their evasion rank also might vary with their job.

    Evasion: (f(Lv, Job Evasion Rank) + AGI/2 + Job Traits

    Lv81 Eva 336

    Rank A, lv81 = 308 AGI 56-57
    Rank B, lv81 = 298 AGI 76-77
    Rank C, lv81 = 290 AGI 92-93
    Rank D, lv81 = 281 AGI 110-111
    Rank E, lv81 = 265 AGI 142-143

    Anything but B or C seems pretty unlikely.

    Greater Colibris have MP, so they are probably a job with natural MP.

    RDM D, BLM E, WHM E, PLD C, DRK C, SMN E, BLU C

    PLD would throw off the VIT calc by adding defense bonus (not to mention rank A VIT), and they seriously don't seem DRK type to me. BLU seems to make sense since they can cast things back at you.

    So assuming Colibri are BLU, BLU are D in every base attribute (not 100% on that one, I can't test it myself since BLU is my only lv1)

    Code:
        A  B  C  D  E  F  G
    81. 45 40 36 31 27 22 18
    Their main job/sj based VIT and AGI both would add up to 46. A rank AGI would give them 91 AGI total, with F rank VIT giving them 68 VIT. Both numbers are 1 off though.

    I also went and got the mode values on Lesser Colibri for comparison, I actually lost the data I used to calculate the mode and just have the result, so it might be slightly off, I can't review it to make sure I had it right (I got the data a few days ago).

    Lesser Colibri VIT from mode
    Lv63 VIT52
    Lv64 VIT52
    Lv65 VIT55

    Code:
        A  B  C  D  E  F  G
    63. 36 31 28 24 21 17 14
    64. 36 32 29 25 21 17 14
    65. 37 32 29 25 22 18 14
    63. 24 + 12 + 17 = 53
    64. 25 + 12 + 17 = 54
    65. 25 + 12 + 18 = 55

    Again the numbers are slightly off, so there must be an error somewhere or a variable missing, but its a pretty close match. Ideal conditions to know all the details about the colibris would require mode testing the VIT of every lv of each bracket (Lesser, regular, Greater) along with /c mapping their respective Evasion and Defense. I'll go out and do that when I'm bored enough.

  18. #338

    On the topic of DEX again:

    After a hellish week of being overloaded with work I had time to give a 2h DEX build in exp another try. The results were better on Colibri as I thought, but still not all too impressive. I came 4% short of the cap (beating on EP mobs earlier I hit the 24% cap easily) in this PT but the sample size was relatively small since the PT was short, but in either case it's still better than before.

    The PT lasted about an hour and a half, and the other members were BRD, BRD, RDM, WAR, and RNG. All in all I'm relatively certain my damage output was lower with this set of gear by a good few %. I'll try to get a few more parses if I can before I make any solid judgements though.

    This was the parse:
    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/193/47077279cl1.jpg

    The set of DEX gear I used and my first test is also on page 7 of this thread, found here:
    http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewto ... &start=180

    But yeah, this looks like at best it'll be a Colibri-camp-only build. But as I said, so far it doesn't really compare to the alternative set of gear I use.

  19. #339

    This is probably a woosh, but if Colibri were war/anything, wouldn't they have DA trait (which they don't)? Wouldn't that somehow indicate their 2 jobs are something different entirely? I have no clue as to what else that would be though..

  20. #340
    Banned.
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    I shat bricks

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