New WS Properties/Modifier/Damage Testing

[Neosutra]

Ascetic's Fury is 50% STR 50% VIT fTP 1

75 mnk/thf no weapon 292 skill SAWS lvl 1 mobs

str74 vit73
312
312
303
297
309
316
316
323

str74+34 vit73
362
352
367
362
353
354
329
358

str74 vit73+36
369
358
354
364
349

mnd dex agi has no increase when stacked 30+

By mod we mean "something that makes this WS not suck" and explains the damage inconsitancies some people see.

No BJ for simply testing stat modifiers. No sir!

[Jkun]

Plus, it makes sense that DEX would be a modifier since PUP has access to a ton of job specific DEX gear and of course,

That's like saying PUP should be nuking because they have access to MAB gear, rite? I wouldn't really rely heavily on it until we have solid proof. >_>;

Meh all I'm missing in PUP Cape so I'm not that fussed about a serious DEX build just yet. I know my current STR setup is enough to break 1.4k so yar. Fucking Bubu.

Please continue.

[LD]

IIrc, low lvl mobs have damage caps, otherwise we'd be doing more on TWs. Like to a decently gears 75, lvl 50 or so mobs will have the same average and crit damage as lvl -1 mob. Been a long time since I thought about that....

[jibini]

I was under the impression that the damage caps were simply a result of fSTR and pDif both having upper limits.

Not that that necessarily changes anything, but I think that's why you get the cap you do.

[SamanosukeShiva]

just got ascetic fury, so far im loving it

mnk tanking JoFaith using ascetic fury, asuran doing 400 avg, and ascetic 600s, did 800 once

[LD]

Well, imo the two most reasonable explanations are really high att mod or high fTP on the 2nd hit. The latter might explain spikes in other WSs also, so if there's any uniformity, that would explain a lot.

[Shamaya]

Went out to test the mods for Pyrrhic Kleos today, the mythic Dnc WS. Here's what me and my cohort Leonstrife got.

Test Conditions
*jambiya, base damage 33
*fStr cap of 11 ; new base damage of 44
*leonstrife's base attributes: str65, dex77, vit57, agi76, int59, mnd51, chr59, as a mithra 75Dnc/Thf
*West Ronafure mobs: Wild Rabbit, Wild Hare, Tunnel Worm, Orcish Fodder.
*All WS were done at ~100 to 105 TP, with Sneak Attack.
*capped pDif multiplier range w/ crit, assumed to be roughly 2.6 to 3, based on public data. (edit: I know the spread is larger than this, and I know the max is slightly higher than this. I just don't know how high.)

Field Data
WS's, naked, 301, 312, 332, 293, 321, 327, 337, 290
WS's, STR etudes, +25, 362 ; +26, 352; +25, 360; +26, 363; +25, 351; +26, 311;
WS's, DEX etudes, +25, 320; +26, 355; +26, 362; +25, 360; +26, 319; +26, 364; +26, 327; +27, 316; +26, 356;
WS's, CHR, +25, 290; we know that agi, int, mnd, vit cannot mod either.

Checking Data for tolerable Accuracy
3/2.6 is 1.153, so we want a split similar to that with our high/low ws's to ensure accuracy. We have:

naked, no etude high/low = 337/290 = 1.162
dex etudes high/low = 364/316 = 1.152
str etudes high/low = 363/311 = 1.167

Skillchain Properties
Untested.

WSC Guesswork
dmg = 332 = pdif(3) *remainingformula,
110.6 = ftp*(wsc + 44),
110.6/ftp = wsc +44,
110.6/ftp = 44 + f(f(dex + str)*0.83)
pDif cancels out. Actual numbers used below.

ftp cancels out here as well: via naked/ftp / dex/ftp
dexHigh = [44 +f(f((77 + 26)*%)*0.83)]
/nakedHigh = /[44 + f(f(77*%)*0.83)]

DEX
0.2?
364/337 = (44 + f(f(103*0.2)*0.83) / (44 + f(f(77*0.2)*0.83)
1.080 = 60 / 56
1.080 = 1.071 = close
0.25?
1.080 = 64 / 59 = 1.085 = close
0.3?
1.080 = 68 / 63
1.080 = 1.079 = very close
0.35?
1.080 = 73 / 65 = 1.123 = meh
0.4?
1.080 = 78 / 68 = 1.147 = eww
0.5?
1.080 = 86 / 75 = 1.147 = eww

STR
0.15
1.077 = 54 / 51 = 1.059 = meh
0.2?
363/337 = (44 + f(f(91*0.2)*0.83) / (44 + f(f(65*0.2)*0.83)
1.077 = 58 / 54
1.077 = 1.074 = close
0.25?
1.077 = 62 / 57 = 1.088 = closeish
0.3?
1.077 = 66 / 59 = 1.119 = meh
0.35?
1.077 = 69 / 62 = 1.113 = eww
0.4?
1.077 = 73 / 65 = 1.123 = eww
0.5?
1.077 = 81 / 70 = 1.157 = eww

WSC Modifiers appear to be STR20% and DEX30%.

Solving for fTP
Our +Str high/low had the largest spread, so those high/low most accurately represent the pDif crit cap/floor. Let's assume the pDif crit floor is 2.6 and the cap is the spread times that, which would be 2.6*1.167 = 3.034. Let's run with that. Let's assume that we've found the Str and Dex WSC's, 20%STR and 30%DEX.

363 = 3.034 * fTP * (44 + f(0.83* f(91*0.2 + 77*0.3)))
119.64 = fTP * (44 + 34)
119.64 = fTP * 78
fTP = 119.64 / 78 = 1.534

fTP appears to be 1.5 @100tp.



This is all just copypasta'd from notes I took in wordpad, so some of it is a bit sloppy. To speak the truth, we went out with a knowledge of WS mechanics but without a perfect idea as to how to test it. The above method seemed to be the most effective, but not knowing what the specific crit pDif high cap was made things a bit tough, so we had to make a few assumptions along the way. I hadn't researched this prior so maybe there was a different, more accurate method than this. If there are any suggestions for adjustments, please PM me and if it's a good suggestion we'll go out and do more testing.

[astrael]

when I did my rough numbers on Pyrrhic Kleos earlier in the thread, I had got a 1.5 fTP as well. The mods were tricky for me to figure out though so I wasn't entirely sure I could say that with absolute certainty. My earlier guess was 25% STR and DEX, but 20% STR and 30% DEX fits my numbers as well (you have far more data and test cases than I did to prove it, so I don't really see how you could improve the accuracy of your outcome).

[Tricen]

Err, not to be off topic. But WeaponChecker is 100% correct and exact? How is it programmed, sounds kinda weird to me.

[Xanthe]

Err, not to be off topic. But WeaponChecker is 100% correct and exact? How is it programmed, sounds kinda weird to me.

Each weapon has the number of WS points stored in memory. The WeaponChecker reads that memory and displays it. The values are stored server side, but updated to client memory every time you zone.

[VZX]

I've been wondering if a similar program to check your other stats can be coded as well (acc, ratk, racc, haste, etc)

[Sekkite]

Only way to not suck seems to be to get it to crit more. These "random" damage spikes I'm sure can all be explained by double attacks and crits.

Congratulations on not reading the thread. How can you conceivably believe that crits or double attacks have not yet been mentioned as a possibility? They both have been discounted. Boosting your crit% (rogue's roll, +crit% merits, gravemaker, ect ect) makes no difference in how often Insurgency deals spike damage. As for TP return, there have been multiple people stating (along with the occasional picture) they got a normal TP return on Insurgency when they got spike damage.

Edit: Foot in mouth. Apparently I didn't read the last few posts careful enough.

[Kroot]

To Clarify: if a forced crit hit for only the first hit is 400 damage on a level 1 mob and we assume that this is maximum PDIF of 3.15 with FTP of 1 with FSTR maxed. Then it is theoretically impossible for the damage to be greater than 800 on a high level mob without double attack (Even if both hits are critical). However we're finding values of upwards to 1389 with no double attack. I'm fairly certain that these new WS's include various factors that are not along the lines of standard WS's.

That was with no weapon and minimal gear. With a real weapon, ws build, and gorget its possible to get around 500 per hit. Also can you show me where the 1390 ws post or page. This could be possibly someone being mnk/nin with a brutal earring in ws set getting 3 crits or 4 hits. 4 crits although rare, can happen and push this ws to the 1.6k+ range.

Congratulations on not reading the thread. How can you conceivably believe that crits or double attacks have not yet been mentioned as a possibility? They both have been discounted. Boosting your crit% (rogue's roll, +crit% merits, gravemaker, ect ect) makes no difference in how often Insurgency deals spike damage. As for TP return, there have been multiple people stating (along with the occasional picture) they got a normal TP return on Insurgency when they got spike damage.

hes not talking about insurgency

imo ascetic's fury makes sense with the mythic weapon. aftermath increases accuracy and atk to some degree allowing for more str and vit to be swapped in and still keep a high pdif and 90%+ accuracy

[Sekkite]

imo ascetic's fury makes sense with the mythic weapon. aftermath increases accuracy and atk to some degree allowing for more str and vit to be swapped in and still keep a high pdif and 90%+ accuracy

Keep in mind the natural accuracy boost that one-hit weapon skills have. Unless what you're fighting has absolutely massive evasion, you won't need to prioritize accuracy as much for Ascetic's Fury as you do for Asuran Fists. While the accuracy boost from the aftermath + mythic weapon is certainly nice, I doubt it'll be a clincher.

[Septimus]

I searched it through and I couldn't find anything about it.

I was PLing myself in Qufim last night and would occasionally use Death Blossom on on Skeletons and Gigases that aggroed. Is it my imagination, or is the accuracy on Death Blossom pretty terrible. I think about two-thirds of my WS missed at least one hit on Quifim mobs. (And not talking about over-killing either.) I wasn't wearing melee gear, but I wasn't wearing Errant either. (Not that it should matter for mobs nearly 50 levels under.)

Anyone else notice this, or was I just having a freak night?

[Lordwafik]

Functioning as expected! Same for me septi, but considering how it out does savage blade for me despite the misses, I still love my flower power.

[Sekkite]

I searched it through and I couldn't find anything about it.

I was PLing myself in Qufim last night and would occasionally use Death Blossom on on Skeletons and Gigases that aggroed. Is it my imagination, or is the accuracy on Death Blossom pretty terrible. I think about two-thirds of my WS missed at least one hit on Quifim mobs. (And not talking about over-killing either.) I wasn't wearing melee gear, but I wasn't wearing Errant either. (Not that it should matter for mobs nearly 50 levels under.)

Anyone else notice this, or was I just having a freak night?

Rukenshin had a comprehensive test on one-hit WS accuracy a while back. I'd have to dig up the link in the newbie section/livejournal (wherever it originated from, I forget at this point) to show you.

As for your circumstance, I'd have to say freak night.

[Septimus]

Functioning as expected! Same for me septi, but considering how it out does savage blade for me despite the misses, I still love my flower power.

I love the Weapon Skill as well, just kind of annoyed and confused with the variability since this was the first time that I really got to use it.

But it is still great to be able to "say it with flowers" to a mob.

And by "it", I mean "fuck you".

[Lordwafik]

Welcome to the 10,000 club matey.

[AoshiZ]

That was with no weapon and minimal gear. With a real weapon, ws build, and gorget its possible to get around 500 per hit. Also can you show me where the 1390 ws post or page. This could be possibly someone being mnk/nin with a brutal earring in ws set getting 3 crits or 4 hits. 4 crits although rare, can happen and push this ws to the 1.6k+ range.

Sorry but you're taking small bits of my post and drawing assumptions. I even stated in my post who posted the information (Muinaru). Please read the entire post before responding.

The person said no Double attack. If you'd like to see the post I'm referring to, its two posts above my previous post. Its a mnk/war that was specifically looking at TP return to assess how his damage was coming about.

Regardless, 500 per hit does not theoretically explain 1389 damage without a double attack. Nor does 600 damage per hit without double attack. Furthermore, 500 damage per hit does not explain 1266 with defender up and no double attack.