Testing: Pole Grip vs Brave Grip for 2handers

[Aux]

I couldn't find any concrete evidence on which would be better, so I went ahead and did hypothetical math on determining averages using data from six different merit parties I had,
All parties I used the same equipment, but I did have a combo of various supporting jobs (BRD,Cor); so I went ahead and averaged everything else.

Note: The following calculations do not include WS Damage. This is something I'm still pondering about:
Is a weaponskill considered as a melee swing?
No parser out there parses doubles in your WS to my knowledge. You can only do it eyeballing.
If they were separate, I would think that it is a huge variable to consider but ignoring this for now.
So anyways I went ahead and did vis-a-vis DA Melee Hits vs +x% Critical Bonus to Melee hits

Pole Grip vs: Brave Grip
2% DA vs 5% Critical Increase.

Pole
+ Benefits WS, faster to hit 100%

Brave
+ Applies every time you critical, and to WS(?)

Greater Colibri - Polearm SAM/NIN, no DA except Pole Grip
793 Hits, 148 Misses, 83 Criticals, 190 Low 326 High, Melee Average 142.18 - Chaos Hunters
742 Hits, 187 Misses, 62 Criticals, 176 Low 295 High, Melee Average 113.77 - Min4 Mad2
596 Hits, 79 Misses, 78 Criticals, 157 Low 301 High, Melee Average 109.36 - Min4 Mad2
403 Hits, 43 Misses, 46 Criticals, 210 Low 388 High, Melee Average 165.83 - Min4 Mad2 Chaos
196 Hits, 50 Misses, 32 Criticals, 138 Low 310 High, Melee Average 121.65 - Mar2&1 Chaos
161 Hits, 53 Misses, 22 Criticals, 193 Low 356 High, Melee Average 130.13 - Min4 Mar2
=============
2891 Hits, 560 Misses, 323 Criticals, Avg: 177 Low 329 High, Melee Average 130.48
Avg Accuracy = 80.63%; 19.37% Miss ratio
Crit rate = 11.17%
------------------
Subtract 2% Pole grip from hits, misses, criticals:
2891 - 57.82 hits

2833.18 Hits, 548.78 Misses, 316.46 Criticals, Avg 177Low 329High (253 average), Melee Average 130.48
-- Above is with No Grip equipped at all (Hypothetical math, I know) --

Pole Grip @ 2% Double Attack:
Based on previously given data:
57.82 Extra hits * 130.48 Average Melee
= +7,544.35 Damage

Brave Grip @ 2% Critical Damage Bonus; 11.17% Crit Hit Ratio
Before Grip= 316.46 Critical Hits * 253 Critical Average = 80,064.38
After Grip = 316.46 Critical Hits * 258.06 Critical Average = 81,665.66
= +1601.28 Damage

Brave Grip @ 5% Critical Damage Bonus: 11.17% Crit Hit Ratio
Before Grip= 316.46 Critical Hits * 253 Critical Average = 80,064.38
After Grip= 316.46 Critical Hits * 265.65 Critical Average = 84,067.59
= +4003.21 Damage

Brave Grip @ 10% Critical Damage Bonus: 11.17% Crit Hit Ratio (Just for the math, probably can't be this high)
Before Grip= 316.46 Critical Hits * 253 Critical Average = 80,064.38
After Grip=316.46 Critical Hits * 278.30 Critical Average = 88,070.81
= +8006.43 Damage


Here we can conclude that Pole is going to a better choice over Brave, unless Brave's effect is 10% or higher OR you up your critical hit rate. These results were given at 11.67% Critical Hit ratio.

Upping the 11.17% Crit values to 13% and 15% I was able to get the following numbers, it gets a bit interesting here once you have a higher crit ratio, the damage scales upward.

Brave Grip @ 2% Critical Damage Bonus:13.00% Crit Hit Ratio
368.31 * 258.06 = 95,046.07 (+14,981.69 Damage)

Brave Grip @ 2% Critical Damage Bonus:15.00% Crit Hit Ratio
424.97 * 258.06 = 109,449.54 (+29,605.18 Damage)

Brave Grip @ 5% Critical Damage Bonus:13.00% Crit Hit Ratio
368.31 * 265.65 = 97,841.55 (+17,777.17 Damage)

Brave Grip @ 5% Critical Damage Bonus:15.00% Crit Hit Ratio
424.97 * 265.65 = 112,893.28 (+32,828.90 Damage)

Brave Grip @ 10% CDB: 15.00% Crit H%
433.65 * 278.30 = 120,684.79 (+40,620.41 Damage)

Double checked the math for all scenarios this time, there should be no mistakes, I hope.

Any comments and suggestions?

[Redshift]

Your crit rate is really low.

[mallister]

brave grip's no where near +10% crit damage boost, more like 5 - 7% from what i could tell when i was testing with it.

[Valyana]

Doesn't look like you're considering Pole's effect on TP gain.

[Cloudius]

Originally Posted by Aux

Brave Grip @ 5% Critical Damage Bonus:
Before Grip= 316.46 Critical Hits * 265.65 Critical Average = 80,064.38 Critical Damage Dealt
After Grip= 316.46 Critical Hits * 278.93 Critical Average = 88,270.18 Critical Damage Dealt
Net Melee DMG Boost= 8,205.80 Damage

I didn't check your whole post since only this part matters, but:
316.46 * 265.65 = 84,067.599 NOT your 80k

This would make your net melee dmg boost = 4202.5888 which is like half your 8.2k.
Simple mistake that made your numbers go in favor of Brave grip, was this an attempt to sell your brave at a higher price ;3?

Pole grip is better in dmg boost, TP gain, and WS average.

[Aux]

Ugh simple mistake, my bad. Thanks for catching it though, I must have hit a wrong number in the calculator and did not bother to recheck the math. The preceding were just copy and pasta. I don't have a Brave yet, was testing to see which would actually be the better of the two

Went ahead and edited my old post: Looks like we have a clear winner.

[Cloudius]

Originally Posted by Aux

Ugh simple mistake, my bad. Thanks for catching it though, I must have hit a wrong number in the calculator and did not bother to recheck the math. The preceding were just copy and pasta. I don't have a Brave yet, was testing to see which would actually be the better of the two

Went ahead and edited my old post: Looks like we have a clear winner.

np and I was j/k about the selling thing .

Your original numbers were a lil high for something that adds 5-15 dmg per rare critical, so I had to check it myself. Also Pole alone is meh 2% is 1 out 50 would DA, but with brutal it goes from 1/20 to 1/14 (dropped 6 rounds), and with /WAR it goes from 1/6.6 to 1/5.8 (only drops 1 round), WAR with DA merits/brutal/Pole is 1/4.5 (drops 1 round), same WAR
with full Ares is 1/3.

So as you can see DA at start gives a nice big boost, but each % after 8% only drops 1 round, and requires to sacrifice a lot of other good status which makes it meh to stack. Probably off topic but there's been a lot of talk about DA both here, and in KI drk forums like DA vs haste or +crit%, so I just wanted get this out of my mind.

[Starr]

The number 1.85 I've seen around, maybe from Amele, for the number of extra WS from Pole Grip. My average Raging Rush is normally 1k so that's another 1850 damage for Pole Grip, it destroys Brave really.

[Tordall]

I think that brave grip adds a flat 10 to a critical hit (at least it's parsed out really really similar to that for me).

The only time I'd consider it over pole would be during mighty strikes.

[Ziero]

Wouldn't more chances to attack during MS actually be better then a slightly increased dmg per hit?

[Aux]

For Mighty Strikes, it's actually pretty easy to figure out which would come out top. You just need the damage per crit and you are good to go with figuring out the outcome by deducing your amount of swings during 2hr.

Assume you use Mighty Strikes on a Lv75 Mob (an even match Steelshell comes to mind), Your attack is 437, the mob's defense is 400, so you are completely 1:1 with this mob.

Using VZX's/StudioG's pDIF values:
Melee cRatio = Ratio - 0.050 x level difference, thus my melee CR would be 1.

max PDIF:
when 10/12 < cRatio ≤ 24/12 then, fMax(cRatio) = 1 + 6/5 x (cRatio - 10/12)
= 1.2

min PDIF:
when 18/12 < cRatio ≤ 24/12 then, fMin(cRatio) = 1 + 6/5 x (cRatio - 18/12)
= 0.4


Given these values, I went ahead and tested this out.
75 WAR/DRK (/DRK just to make sure I could exceed the attack cap), had a BRD with 2hr minuet 4+3. Remember that when you hit the attack cap, any attack after that is rendered useless. I ran around until I found an EM Steelshell.

Default 2hr gear consisted of this: 18%(17.58%) Haste

before Berserk, SV Minuet4+3, Last Resort:



after Berserk, SV M4+3, Last Resort:



Mighty Strikes Chat Log - I forgot to turn off retaliation, but that should not affect the crit values so ignoring that (I think it was a critical retailate too), here it is:


So during MS:
297, 297, 294, 295, 289, 292, 277, 268, 276, 275
10 attacks in 45 seconds. I scored 4 double attacks. Give my gear, if I never had any DA I would've only done 6.5 attacks.
Median crit was:286

Now back to the math; Keep in mind that these values only apply for a level 75 EM mob where you are 1:1 on attack:defense!
I'll leave someone else with better skills to work on values where the mob is significantly higher.

Warrior #1 scenario
Say a WAR/SAM using the following gear: (That's a swift belt).


504 base Weapon Delay, 18.55% Haste, 6 StoreTP (1 TP shy of a 6hit, so use Ecephoria (sp?) ring or something else to substitute if you want 100% tp in 6 hits)

Using FFXI Calculator for this math:
He/she gets Haste(14.65%) and Hasso(9.96%) Maxed non-sv March1+2(18.75%), giving him a grand total of 61.91% Haste.

This would calculate to seconds per a swing:
8.4 seconds - 5.2 = 3.2 seconds = 14.06 attacks; if none were a DA chance. The following values will be truncated, since FFXI doesn't do decimals.
14 * 286 = 4004 damage, 14 attacks, no DA.

Brave Grip, at 2% damage increase:
14 * 291 = 4074 Damage (+70 damage)

Brave Grip, at 5% damage increase:
14 * 300 = 4200 Damage (+196 damage)

Brave Grip, at 10% damage increase:
14 * 314 = 4396 Damage (+392 damage)

Brave Grip, at +10 damage increase:
14 * 296 = 4144 Damage, (+140 damage)

Here as you can see, if brave is 5-10% it basically means giving you one extra crit hit (196-392)

Pole Grip, 2% chance to attack
At 14 hits, this is going to be random, since you can either score a DA or you can't.
again from above:
14 * 286 = 4004 damage

At a reasonable guess, we can assume that pole either grants you 1 extra attack or 0 during these rounds. (14 hits is a low number, not enough to warrant 1 DA guarantee)
Assume 1 DA due to pole, you did 286.
Assume 0, then obviously you did 0.

Warrior #2 scenario
Now decked out WAR/SAM with this, and that's a speed belt:


Same Haste, double non-sv march and hasso deal: 65.82% Haste
= 2.8 seconds = 16 attacks.

No grip
16 * 286 = 4576 damage (+572 dmg over previous WAR)

BGrip 2%
16 * 291 = 4656 damage (+582 dmg over previous WAR)

Bgrip 5%
16 * 300 = 4800 damage (+600 dmg over previous WAR)

Bgrip 10%
16 * 314 = 5024 damage (+628 dmg over previous WAR)

So then again, this would likely be a user pick over WAR Mighty Strikes. You can either go for guaranteed albiet lower damage from Brave, or 1 presumable DA from pole
Brave: ~200 to 400+ish damage, scales up by haste equipped
Pole: 1 DA for 286 or none for 0.

[Redshift]

Don't use FFXI Calculator, there's errors in it. I know that both marches are given the same haste value and DW is calculated improperly, not sure what else is wrong with it.

I find it strange you only crit for 297 under the effects of Warcry/Last Resort and not once afterward. Probably fluke.

Is Brave Grip a straight +% damage bonus or +pDIF to crits?

And your ATK was capped, but fSTR sure wasn't =/
3.15(96+16)=359

[Max™]

Brave is the shizzy for /Thf WSing fun, and for 2hring, I have a macro to prime myself for 2hr for /Sam at least, puts on the brave grip and pops meditate.

Looks like Brave turns Crits from +1.0 to +1.05~, you won't find anything that will produce higher 2hr WS numbers, but it isn't a full time piece I don't think.