Is one side of RMT hated and the other embraced?

[BRP]

There are two sides of RMT, selling and buying. Looking into selling alone, this divides further based on who is doing the selling:

-RMT Business... ige, chinese, etc
-Personal RMT... ebay, famous forum posters selling their accounts, etc

After browsing oh so many RMT hate threads I see a trend. A trend found more so than MMOs, but certainly found in FFXI. To put it bluntly, selling accounts seems to met with much less or no resistance or disrespect when a player(a person someone can relate to, a face) is doing the selling. This is not a new concept, but I haven't seen it discussed here in a long time.

RMT hate, especially before the STF, could even be rabid in appearance. Racism against chinese and general disdain of the game and its developers has been created from this struggle with RMT. Every STF report thread seems to have at least one person who thinks SE isn't working hard enough.

When a famous player, for example like Ryko, sells his account this suddenly shifts to more of a joke. The tone changes from "blight on this game" to "oh, I wonder who sold his account this week" with chuckle or wink. Of course I don't speak for the moderation team of this website, which do act on such things. I only speak about the community itself and their reaction. What happens when you attack a prominent forum member on this matter?

When looking at websites with minimal or no links with the allakhazam or bluegartr communities I noticed this going one step further. In the same thread you had people complaining about farmers and asking for advice on buying accounts as well. I've seen players ask questions "I am thinking about getting into FFXI. What's a good price for an account?" World of Warcraft's design made it immune to the many of the RMT-related problems that plagued FFXI. The general opinion of gil sellers are still negative, but certainly never reached the levels of FFXI. You have a lot of new players coming from WoW or similar games where RMT farmers only tend to be a minor issue at the very worse.

I see developers of new games underestimating this side of RMT. Warhammer Online is putting great efforts on stopping business RMT selling currency through the game, but they yet to create measures to prevent players from doing so with their accounts on a website like ebay.

And there is this time bomb effect. Some players will against RMT until he quits and becomes RMT. All personal opinions about gameplay morality seems to go right out the window once the game ends for them. I think of this like a monopoly player who is against other players exchanging money for real currency until he has to leave early and then sells everything he has for real currency.

Getting back to the original point. With RMT being a faceless evil and players being peers and friends, is it one-sided?

[The_OG_Nelta]

Ryko sold his account? !?

[drwaffles]

People's negative attitudes towards certain activities tend to make 180 degree turns when someone popular gets involved in them?

No. Effing. Way.

[ZhanAsura]

If your American and you're RMTing, its cool. If you're a minority and you RMT, fuck you.

[Lordwafik]

People will be hypocrites so long as it benefits them and they can get away with it. In an anonymous community such as an online one, there are no repercussions, only benefits. Tarnished reputation? They don't care as they're never going to be seen again.

I personally think it's pathetic when someone RMTs their account, the perfect example of what BRP is saying is when Sath RMT'd. He openly claimed he was RMTing it on the spam board and so many people were like "Aww sath ^^" "We'll miss you sath ^^" "Oh you cheeky sath~!" etc. In his story, he RMT'd it to buy himself and his wife a new life, tehy were going to Japan or something to relocate, but the next week he was telling us how he was buying some 1000 dollar suits. Neat.

Famous forum user or not, RMT = RMT. But so long as the online community is as anonymous as it is, there aren't any repercussions. If SE allows third party evidence as support of RMT, things would be great any time someone on egaming supply was matched to a certain person who recently quit because they found out they had leukemia/car was on fire/mother is a fairy.


Edit : Not spam.

[Kaliden]

Did I just enter a portal?

To stay on topic, yes it is very one-sided. I've always had a problem with the racism towards our Chinese players stemming from RMT hate.

[Corrderio]

People will be hypocrites so long as it benefits them and they can get away with it.

Couldn't put it in better words myself.

[drwaffles]

Originally Posted by Lordwafik

I personally think it's pathetic when someone RMTs their account, the perfect example of what BRP is saying is when Sath RMT'd. He openly claimed he was RMTing it on the spam board and so many people were like "Aww sath ^^" "We'll miss you sath ^^" "Oh you cheeky sath~!" etc.

So true it's almost as if Jesus himself preached it. It's the exact same situation as when that slut on spam posted pictures of her ass and most people's mentality shifted from "lole-whores" to "omg ur so brave and kewl", or how people only caused an uproar over PW because it was BtL that wasted their Saturday fighting it (if it had been some unknown JP shell or something, I can guarantee the reaction wouldn't have been quite the same).

Hypocrisy everywhere.

[LD]

It's more simple than that. People only hate something when (they think) it affects them negatively.
When people think of IGE, they imagine an entire office of people exploiting every aspect of the game. Their coordination combined with their numbers can't help but have dramatic effects on the game and the results are plain to see. Whether you believe it or not, it's harder to argue that one guy manipulating the economy or monopolizing certain monsters can ruin many people's play time. I'm sure 9 times out of 10 when someone mentions selling their account, they're either met with sympathy or apathy, but I think that has more to do with the perception that it wont affect them than any favoritism.

Basically, most people's opinions of RMT are in direct proportion to how much it benefits them, which is why a lot of people still sell their accounts and their gil.

[Gwynplaine]

That kind of attitude is pragmatic. It is bad until that person does it, then they find some way to rationalize out of it being bad, or simply give up their prior pretense of caring.

For the most part early on RMT was looked down upon, but by and large most people it was a "whatever, it's your money to blow if you're that stupid, just leave me be" attitude. At that time it was primarily an issue of those RMT providers and buyers breaking Square's explicit ToS. Dealing in RMT was as bad then as it is now, except there was less need to condemn it because it was primarily between those two parties, the ToS breakers (RMT and gil buyers both), and SE.

Now however, the RMT providers have shown just how low they're willing to go when business tightens up. Once a company or group is willing to hack a players PC to meet their demand, it's no longer between SE and the people who choose to RMT. Anyone is a potential victim, and so it should concern everyone who values their time, effort, and their account. Selling your account to groups that you know full and well are in the business of stealing and destroying a persons years of effort (and possibly stealing even their money if world transfers etc. are charged using their card) should be harshly condemned openly, and I certainly do so. A player who sells their account to an RMT company will get no love from me, and I absolutely would not sell my account to fund such activities myself.

[Ambir]

The side thats competing for pops, and ruining markets, without having any intention of actually playing the game, attracts more attention than the side that decides to make a few bucks when they quit.

They're both RMT, but the effects they have on average players is completely different.

[LD]

The point is that the effects aren't different, they aren't separate, they're cumulative. One asshole selling his char or gil is still giving away virtual effort for real currency. The only difference is how you personally judge it. For example, you either look at it as 'One more RMT' or 'Just one more RMT.' The latter means you don't think it matters or your simply don't care, but the effect is exactly the same.

[Ambir]

Originally Posted by LD

The point is that the effects aren't different, they aren't separate, they're cumulative. One asshole selling his char or gil is still giving away virtual effort for real currency. The only difference is how you personally judge it. For example, you either look at it as 'One more RMT' or 'Just one more RMT.' The latter means you don't think it matters or your simply don't care, but the effect is exactly the same.

Of course they're cumulative, but when one side is covering all the farming pops in the area where you make gil, and the other side has disappeared from the game completely, who you going to go after?

And they don't have the same effect at all. Someone selling their account doesn't have anywhere near the effect on the in game economy as someone monopolising drops/markets.

[LD]

Except that it contributes to the people who do. Ideally, you're supposed to go after all of them, but this kinda proves what I was talking about; people will only bother with it if it bothers them. There is no gray area if you actually care about the problem.

[Ambir]

Rubbish, everything in life is grey. It's like saying that someone driving 1k over the limit on an empty motorway, is exactly the same as someone driving 100k over the limit through a primary school zone. In a black and white world they're both equally bad, equally illegal. In the real world one is (rightly) considered a far more serious offence.

They're both illegal, but the one that is day in day out affecting the gameplay of thousands of players is different to the other which is a one off effect of selling an account. Not to mention that in the case of account selling, the seller has left the game, and you have no way to go after them anyway...

[LD]

Originally Posted by Ambir

It's like saying that someone driving 1k over the limit on an empty motorway, is exactly the same as someone driving 100k over the limit through a primary school zone.

HE FUCKING IS!!!

Just because the likelihood of him causing someone harm is substantially lower doesn't mean that he couldn't potentially hurt someone. By that logic, drunk drivers should only be arrested if they actually hurt someone and not before.

Just to be clear, I focused exclusively on this part of your post because I got the feeling that disagreeing with that makes reading the rest of it pointless. I'm sure it's completely predicated on the flawed assumption that I am a person who does not think purely in black and white.

[Ambir]

Originally Posted by LD

HE FUCKING IS!!!

Just because the likelihood of him causing someone harm is substantially lower doesn't mean that he couldn't potentially hurt someone. By that logic, drunk drivers should only be arrested if they actually hurt someone and not before.

Just to be clear, I focused exclusively on this part of your post because I got the feeling that disagreeing with that makes reading the rest of it pointless. I'm sure it's completely predicated on the flawed assumption that I am a person who does not think purely in black and white.

You are thinking in black and white though, legal/illegal being the only two states.

I personally don't want to live in a society where everything that is against the rules is treated equally. Life isn't like that, and whether you believe in it, society doesn't.

You're perfectly free though to start hunting down people who have left the game and sold/given (yes given, characters are non-transferrable according to the laws of the game) their characters away. How you'll find them, I have no idea, and how you'll penalise them, when the only penalties that can be applied are in game ones, well I'm sure you'll think of something. Maybe give them a good talking to!

Good luck with that.

[Eron]

I've always considered regular players RMTing and gilsellers to be equally as shitty. Ryko's an ass, Mr. Chinese (Korean, Malaysian, Singaporian, w/e) gilseller is an ass, that group of UAE (read: every one of them that I've ever met) players who love to buy gil are asses, Mikesjustice, that first group of douches that taught RMT how to do sky and sea, HappyFriends LS, Wadian, Feitard, and everyone who has ever bought gil can all die in the same fire.

They may each have different levels of effect on it, but they all contribute to the same significant problem.

[Aquilla]

The illusion of gameplaying is that we all start out on a same, level playing field, and that we all have the same chance of success, however you define that term.

RMT basically takes that illusion, kills it, disembowels it, and does unspeakable perverted things to the corpse.

Of course, it is an illusion. A lot of things ingame depend purely on how much time one has to spend on it, which is why whenever you actually discuss RMT there are a lot of gray areas. Arguments for and against are usually well known -- the "I work and can't farm', the 'I'm rich and can afford it', the 'I'm just outsourcing the boring part of the game', etc, and conversely, all the arguments against -- unfair, immoral, lazy, 'lulz you just spend how much on fake stuff?'.

And, naturally, most people, once they no longer play... no longer care.

For me personally -- buying gil and accounts is a silly waste of money, and it simply means that someone will be spending more money than I to get the same thing I have. Unfortunately, you can't outlaw idiots. People tried.

Selling gils and accounts -- well, in a way, it's taking advantage of idiots, which is basically the premise of free enterprise, capitalism, and just business in general. The cynic in me can't really condemn that principle too loudly. However, what does irk me -- and I think most people -- is the way RMT groups get their gil to sell. Monopolizing NMs, or crafting, or fishing, using cheats/hacks/bots/what have you, and especially the spate of hackings of accounts -- can't really defend that, can you? If the RMT went about doing the exact same things I do to get gils, and did it in exactly the same way... well, they'd probably be a pretty broke RMT, lol, but I probably wouldn't care.

The main reason why people who sell their accounts aren't condemned as loudly is because it doesn't directly affect most people -- would it really matter if I quit and gave my account away to a lsmember? Is that so much different from selling it? -shrug-.

Unfortunately, since this is the internets, there's really no way to be ambivalent about RMT. They've proven, over and over again, that they'll do just about anything to get their gil, and as such, don't really deserve sympathy.

[ronin sparthos]

Its always funny to see someone who has admitted to spending hundreds if not thousands on gil getting their character stolen by fellow LS members or hacked by RMT.

Something about it just seems so very wrong but so very right.

[LD]

Don't get self-righteous with me you prat, I cornered the fucking market.

I'm not comparing apples to oranges (which, incidentally, are still fruits), I'm comparing war to murder. The fact that one is accepted and the other isn't is hypocrisy, pure and simple. What either of us think or do is completely irrelevant, because in the laws of nations and religions, there is something that expressly forbids the killing of another man under any circumstances and in the name of both, people do just that. Would I murder a man if I had to? God Damn right I would and I probably wouldn't lament it, but I killed a man with a family and in a perfect world I should be punished for that. Of course in a perfect world, I wouldn't murder anyone, but we're both idealizing, aren't we? I can't have my absolute law no more than you can effectively argue that one guy RMTing is fucking up the community any less than another guy within an organization.

The fact is laws are in place for a reason. Jay walkers shouldn't be given the death penalty, but raping one person shouldn't get less of a penalty than raping 100. Using rape and murder may strike some people as the absolute worst kind of hyperbole, but they're still very fitting and they serve the purpose of driving my point home with the intended amount of force. What am I going to do about it? What kind of childishness are you reaching for? Somehow my beliefs mean less because I can't actually bring them into being? I suppose you have one up on me, since you can start RMTing tomorrow and it'll become so mainstream selling accounts will just be another part of the game.

Have fun with that, I'll be retaining my morals.

[Lordwafik]

What's sad is I came across this blog the other day,

http://ffxi.com/

and to anyone who doesn't google search and types "ffxi.com" the same way they'd do wow.com to expect to see an official site (or at least an unofficial fansite that's got all the goodies), instead sees quotes like :

I haven’t purchased FFXI gil in quite a while so I don’t really know what’s going on, but if you’ve recently placed an order and would like to share your shopping experience, leave a comment. I’d like to know the latest scoop from the gil buyers themselves.

As for moi, to get away from the daily grind (hey, I have a life outside FFXI, ya know!), I invest in the occasional gil from sites like IGE.com. And no, I don’t a give a second thought about purchasing virtual currency. Life is too short to waste arguing about the EULA.

*insert facepalm*

This dude is a scumbag, and the fact that this blog is up on a link that would probably generate a lot of clicks is sad.

I just hope it's a well excecuted troll site.

Actually going through the links, it looks like a site made by IGE. Any link in regards to FFXI all links back to IGE, knew something was up with the site, they're trying to play off gilbuying as something you do as casually as shitting on the toilet. Look at the tone and the fact they want feedback from gilbuyers.