Endgame gimmicks

[Cutriss]

I had something occur to me last night after browsing BG, suggesting "Did you try using the Chrono Cross?" as a lolsolution to beating AV. Then I started thinking back through all the SE games I've played, trying to come up with other games where there was a difficult *and* gimmick-oriented fight to deal with. I figured maybe there was someone in common between Chrono Cross and FFXI that might explain why we have this stupid mob with his sooper sekrit weakness.

So, I checked GameFAQs for the battle programmers on Chrono Cross, and surprise surprise...it's Hiromichi Tanaka. Checking Wikipedia for his other game credits, I see two other games with gimmick battles - Xenogears and Threads of Fate.

In thinking about the battles in the main FF line with stuff like Omega Weapon and Ruby Weapon and Hell Wyrm whatnot, they're all difficult to a certain extent, sure, but they don't require you to, say, use spells in a particular order that is minimally suggested by subtle hints elsewhere in the game, or carefully select your party based on Chu-Chu's "fuel consumption" (or lack thereof).

I didn't play Threads of Fate long enough to really say I am substantially aware of it, but less than an hour in, having to XP grind just to get enough MP to use a fire spell enough times to make my way through a long cavern of ice that re-forms after a few seconds. I imagine it only got worse from that point onward.

So, this may essentially be a battle we can't win, in terms of bringing reason to the argument. The man seems to delight in his puzzles of frivolity.

[Eanae]

We should call this kind of thing Poof syndrome.

[Shinsei]

Omega Weapon in FF8 I had to get the Holy Wars from beating that side card game and used it in the battle with him. Though I remember seeing a video on the net of someone beating it without Holy Wars. However, for the most people that did play it and beat that boss, I believe the majority used the holy wars approached.

I don't know about others, but I never used a strat. guide for it, I actually got it all by luck, randomly talked to Quistis at some point cause I was stumped (walkin around talking to every single npc lol in hopes of continuing the storyline) and then at that time it revealed Quistis was the King? or something like that....it's been so long my memory's foggy, but I guess I eventually played her in a card game and beat her, then eventually got the Holy Wars item out of it. After seeing the description, I just held on to it because it seemed to good to waste.


But SE claimed AV is a beatable mob though, they just want us to find out w/e the trick is <.<. They wouldn't even bother weakening AV if they never intended it to die.....they just wanted us to kill it in their "omg special way" and not our way of taking him down (as seen as they patch him every time the community defeats him).

[dejet]

we know this and a lot of random stuff has been tested. the video has the answers we know that. it has something to do with 2hrs we just cant warp our heads around it(fully)

[Jkun]

[Robert]

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[dejet]

Originally Posted by Robert Mk. 6

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

im not in a room im outside! its so nice here today!

[Apelila]

Wow, comparing AV to whatever the final boss of chrono cross was.

Now I'm not saying its a bad idea, as I can't see anyone beating that last boss out of anything other than shear, stupid luck without help or an epiphany from god. I've always said that once they get tired of all the bithing and tell us Virture will be the same way, we'll have a collective 'what the fucking hell' as we go and rape us an aern.

But I think your giving Tanaka too much credit. All the 'stupid' gimmicks in SE games over the last 10 years have probably come from more than one person, if anything he's just the lead idiot.

Edit: Does this mean we have to sing AV to death? With colors?

[Mizango]

.......

[Afrohatch]

Originally Posted by Jkun

THAT IS NOT FUCKING AV

[Sonomaa]

Ok. Some people seem to have confusion of Gameplay Mechanic vs Gimmick in FFXI.

A gameplay mechanic is a discernible and understandable action of a mob and our reaction to it.

For example: Wyrms, Fafnir, Nidhogg, Jorm, Tiamat, sometimes Vrtra.

Mob does cone breath damage: Solution, stand on its paws
Mob does aoe mass damage move when attacked from behind: Dont attack from behind
Mob flys at a certain point and switches to high damage magic attacks: Stun high damage magic attacks, use resist gear to offset remainder of damage.

These are gameplay mechanics, they are discernible and counterable by adjusting strategy to compensate, adjusting is usually swift, its a learning process that can take days, weeks, or months, but its discovered and if followed, the battle is fun and enjoyable.

Another example is Odin. He does Zanskutsen (sp) and kills everyone standing up. Solution? Heal. This was a problem for a little while, then everyone discovered it was healing and odin became something fun to fight.

Gimmicks: Gimmicks are bullshit tactics that dont make sense. The problem with gimmicks that makes them not gameplay mechanics is when a "solution" is presented that doesnt make sense yet its followed down to a T and it STILL doesnt work, its once again, a gimmick.

Absolute Virtue has been given a "hint" movie, the problem with the hint is that its a gimmick, it gives us some sort of idea but its not consistent or well planned out, its been analyzed by some of the most intelligent people in the game and it STILL doesnt work. Recently of course AV has been nerfed, however even then the gimmick weve been handed doesnt work. So what did we counter it with? Our own gimmick, except its not a gimmick its a gameplay mechanic, large scale mass damage as quickly as possible. In military terms this is similar to carpet bombing or dropping a nuke, decisive immediate victory, realizing you will take some casualties, realizing you will lose if the battle is not finished within scant moments of it starting.

Looks like our gameplay mechanic pissed some people off, who then made changes to turn it into a gimmick so they could live up their fantasy gimmick.

PW is another boss that has a gimmick that is supposed to be his gameplay mechanic, the problem with the gimmick is that it simply takes too long to execute. It becomes a joke and a danger to its own players.

[Charla]

Originally Posted by Apelila

Wow, comparing AV to whatever the final boss of chrono cross was.

Now I'm not saying its a bad idea, as I can't see anyone beating that last boss out of anything other than shear, stupid luck without help or an epiphany from god.

Really? I thought the boss actually gives you hints about the order of what you have to use. He starts by casting nothing but green spells, until you use a yellow one (yellow is the opposite of green, blue is the opposite of red in crono cross). Then he uses the opposite of whatever you're supposed to use next. So if you remember the earlier hints about a color order triggering it, then it's fairly easy to figure out what that order is just by watching what the boss itself does.

In addition, casting the right element is part of AV's 'gimmick', it's just the easiest and least useful part (breaking regen).

edit: I think a better analogy for souleater zerging would be a blitzkrieg. Carpet bombing is/was best used after establishing air superiority, and a nuke is marked more by the properties of overkill and collateral damage. A zerg is therefore more like a blitzkrieg, a short-duration concerted effort to overwhelm a target (in AV's case, by bypassing its normally significant defense) before most of its capabilities can be brought to bear.

[Afrohatch]

Originally Posted by Sonomaa

Another example is Odin. He does Zanskutsen (sp) and kills everyone standing up. Solution? Heal. This was a problem for a little while, then everyone discovered it was healing and odin became something fun to fight.

SE straight up TOLD us that /heal was the way to avoid insta-KO from Zantet, lol

[Mizango]

Ludacat incoming...

[LinktheDeme]

Originally Posted by Sonomaa

Another example is Odin. He does Zanskutsen (sp) and kills everyone standing up. Solution? Heal. This was a problem for a little while, then everyone discovered it was healing and odin became something fun to fight.

No one discovered it was healing we were told it was healing. However even without healing its not hard to avoid and really only 1 pld should be hit by it.

edit: too slow ; ;

[Sonomaa]

Originally Posted by Afrohatch

SE straight up TOLD us that /heal was the way to avoid insta-KO from Zantet, lol

some JPs actually found it out before they were told, however we had issues with it being lost in translation, we continually tried to /kneel as opposed to /heal

edit: and I thought SEs hint was "show reverence to him" did they actually come out and say "hey, type /heal or press the wut button"

[Apelila]

Originally Posted by Charla

Really? I thought the boss actually gives you hints about the order of what you have to use. He starts by casting nothing but green spells, until you use a yellow one (yellow is the opposite of green, blue is the opposite of red in crono cross). Then he uses the opposite of whatever you're supposed to use next. So if you remember the earlier hints about a color order triggering it, then it's fairly easy to figure out what that order is just by watching what the boss itself does.

In addition, casting the right element is part of AV's 'gimmick', it's just the easiest and least useful part (breaking regen).

in all honesty I don't know, a friend told me about the fight before I did it and after the last half hour before it I just wanted to see the credits and forget that they fucked up the ending.

[Crisco]

Has anyone ever offered the idea that AV's 'trick' is glitched, that the correct use of countering 2hrs with 2hrs (may not be the 'trick' but it's an obvious factor) is not working properly? I would be led to believe that SE thinks so, but have they done any REAL testing or monitored current tests of the '2hr' nature on live servers? Perhaps their baby isn't functioning as intended.

I would hope this avenue hasn't been overlooked, and we would have no control over it if it was, but does anyone know? Have there been any recent interviews or statements saying they know without a doubt that the secret method is functional?

[Lampoon]

Wouldn't a gimmick be considered a strategy that's used over and over to defeat various types of monsters?

[Jkun]

Originally Posted by Lampoon

Wouldn't a gimmick be considered a strategy that's used over and over to defeat various types of monsters?

Hey yeah, like if you use a Dark Knight with a Kraken Club and then Soulea-- Oh, oh wait.

I think it's become painfully obvious by now that SE will not tell us or give us anymore hints on how it's meant to be killed.

[phrost]

Originally Posted by Lampoon

Wouldn't a gimmick be considered a strategy that's used over and over to defeat various types of monsters?

Wat u say?

[Lampoon]

That's what I thought. lol

[Sonomaa]

yeah, except I mentioned that strategy specifically in my text, perhaps you didnt bother to read it? Ill quote it for you.

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