Augments vs Enhances

Gaea · 09-22-2008, 03:41 AM

I was poking around the mythic weapons description, and I clicked on a few I haven't actually checked because I just went by what people told me. Here's some things I noticed I thought I'd point out.

The Vajra for Thief specifically says:
Enhances "Sneak Attack" effect
Enhances "Trick Attack" effect

It doesn't say "Enhances "Sneak Attack" and "Trick Attack"

The Glanzfaust for Monk says:
Augments "Focus" and "Dodge"

This suggests that there will be a relationship between Focus and Dodge.

It doesn't say:
Augments "Focus"
Augments "Dodge"

Now, I'm not saying I'm the first to notice this relationship and definitely not the fact that the word "Augment" is used but I think there's more to it than some people think.

The main reason I'm making this post is because I've heard some people are disappointed with the mythic weapon for "their" job and I thought maybe I could give them a little bit of hope. I don't think monks should be so quick to dismiss this weapon that's for sure.

Players have actually tested a couple of these augmentations and have found them to be quite a serious adjustment. This is especially true for Convert. This also points out that this is a much more serious "word" than "enhance".

I'm proposing that this wording in Glanzfaust suggests a relationship between "Focus" and "Dodge" that will be imposed similar to a SAM's Hasso and Seigan. The difference is that I think if you use Focus, THEN Dodge, that they'll both stay up but Focus will wear off as normal. Dodge will stay for at least the full duration of it's recast (if not longer). If you use Dodge then Focus, then Dodge will wear off and Focus will stay on for at least the full duration of it's recast.

In other words, you can only choose which one you want to have "full time" simply by making it the most recent ability you've used.

Furthermore, there are other mythics (such as liberator) that seem to be a disappointment for Dark Knights. Well, with a word like "Augment" this might not just be something as simple as allowing you to drain a few more points of TP or STR. It might just straight double whatever you do absorb. It may also slow or negate the decay of absorbing stats. For example, if you absorb 65 TP from a mob you might get 130, even though the mob only lost 65 TP. If you absorb 15 STR from a mob, you might get +30 and the rate at which it decays might be lowered dramatically or may even stay on for several minutes and allow you to stack onto it with more absorbing (with a cap I'm sure).

I can't even imagine what SE has in mind for "Berserk". Will it increase attack and lower defense even more? Will it have a duration as long as it's recast? Will it negate the defense penalty?

Of course, I could be wrong and these weapons could be a great disappointment. But I think before some of you write them off completely, you should still do your Nyzul Isles, your Einherjars, and collect your Alexandrites. You might not even have to wait until someone gets the weapon to see if you want it. We might see some first hand testing at fanfest. So, don't be so quick to give up, and be nice to people who want to get them *^^*

If you don't like the weapon after it's augments are confirmed, just sell the alexandrites (or give them to a friend), buy some goodies with your Einherjar ampoules, and cut your losses with Nyzul Isle

shinoniken · 09-22-2008, 04:03 AM

I'm sorry, I really don't see the point in this post, besides random speculation. If you had data or something to back it up it would be different, but this is just like people pulling AV theories out of their ass. Your TH thread is also of the same caliber, why not take it to newbie or KI, this is not advanced.

zard1977 · 09-22-2008, 04:05 AM

The weapon descriptions in Japanese are basically just the same as before i.e. they did not come out with another term to differentiate "ënchances" and "augments".

Also, they put SA and TA in 1 line for the japanese description of Vajra just like Glanzfaust.
Basically the description of Vajra reads like "enhances effects of sneak attack & trick attack" in the japanese version.

I wouldn't put too much thought into the the wordings.

Gaea · 09-22-2008, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinoniken

I'm sorry, I really don't see the point in this post, besides random speculation. If you had data or something to back it up it would be different, but this is just like people pulling AV theories out of their ass. Your TH thread is also of the same caliber, why not take it to newbie or KI, this is not advanced.

It's not really meant to be a theory. More like... an interpretation that might give some people hope that have decided to give up on their weapon because they are disappointed.

miokomioko · 09-22-2008, 04:08 AM

Less people buying Alexandrite, the better... :3

Gaea · 09-22-2008, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miokomioko

Less people buying Alexandrite, the better... :3

heh. I'm just suggesting people don't give up on their weapon til we see it tested at fanfest. I see people saying "oh this sucks" or even telling other people "don't get that it's garbage, go get dynamis relic". I just think the jury is still out on these weapons and people shouldn't be so quick to say these things and other people should hold onto the prospect there's much about them we don't understand.

Apelila · 09-22-2008, 05:34 AM

Focus and dodge are probably just together to save line space.

Most MNK's use them at the same time because they're on the same timer (pre merits).

Unless its horribly obvious what it does, its going to be a pain in the ass to test too.

Gaea · 09-22-2008, 05:53 AM

Yeah, I could be reading too much into it, I'm just trying to suggest people wait until after fanfest (where I'm sure we'll get to play with these new weapons) before they give up totally.

A friend of mine who was interested in the Scythe pretty much said "screw that" and that's what I was looking up when I noticed the other stuff like with the Glansfaust and how some of the weapons say "enhances" and some of the weapons say "augments".

I really do hope that "augment" does mean something a little more spectacular than "enhances" and it does make these weapons worth getting because I'd like to see people with them in the game. So many of the dynamis relics hardly ever get upgraded cause they are such garbage and the cost of currency and the time to get one just isn't worth it. I've never even seen a Claustrum, but I've seen plenty of Amanos, Ghorns, and Aegises. It would be nice to see a larger variety of relic weapons in the game such as Laevateinns, Tupsimatis, and Nirvanas.

I'm wondering if the Nagi will make it so a Ninja doesn't die when it uses Mijin Gakure, similar to the way mobs don't die when they use it and maybe double the damage or something. I think whatever it does it'll be pretty neat.

I'm not saying these weapons will definitely pan out to be more awesome than they look, I'm just saying people should at least still try to do Einherjar and Nyzul Isle, just in case they decide to get it later after some real testing is actually done. There's no harm in it, that's for sure.

Tarage · 09-22-2008, 06:26 AM

You assume I care about anything other than -4 perp cost.

Free Fenrir here I come!

Chen · 09-22-2008, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinoniken

I'm sorry, I really don't see the point in this post, besides random speculation. If you had data or something to back it up it would be different, but this is just like people pulling AV theories out of their ass. Your TH thread is also of the same caliber, why not take it to newbie or KI, this is not advanced.

seriously.

Kimkytaru · 09-22-2008, 06:39 AM

Mnk is crap anyway even if it enhance focus and dodge, only way it could be good, would be if it enhance dodge to the point where you could avoid 3-4 hits for sure and push focus to the limit of the timer.

Honestly there's so many stuff they could have add to mnk that would have been better, I dunno why they choose focus/dodge.

Gaea · 09-22-2008, 06:47 AM

Well, I'm not trying to actually form a theory on what it all means, I'm just trying to suggest that our initial interpretations might be wrong and that the word "augment" might be serious business and people should wait until some actual testing is done and there's real confirmation on what this stuff means before they dismiss this weapon or insult someone who's working on it. (and and and, haha I need to learn how to make sentences but you get the point)

Also, I don't think people should quit their Einherjar groups and Nyzul Isles just yet either. Anyone who wanted one of these weapons before they knew the stats should wait until we can confirm the actual stats before they decide against it.

I'll be sad if I don't see any Liberators or Glansfausts like I never see any Claustrums

Please don't give up on these weapon yet and please don't try to discourage people that are going to attempt to get one

Toksyuryel · 09-22-2008, 06:51 AM

If it could make focus last for 5 minutes, that would be worth it IMO. +30 accuracy that you can rely on all the time can completely change how you do the rest of your gear and food for merits and salvage, and greatly improve your hit rate against more evasive mobs. A similar argument is made for elemental obis- sure it's the same bonus you could already get some of the time, but getting it all the time makes a huge difference.

That said, I fully expect SE to simply have done something dumb and useless with it.

Gaea · 09-22-2008, 06:55 AM

YOU GOTTA BELIIIIIIIEEEEEVE. keep hope alive!

Lexa · 09-22-2008, 07:40 AM

HEY GUISE EBONY PANELS AMIRITE?

Seriously, you're trying WAY TOO HARD! You're not gonne come up with a startling revelation. You're not gonna be the new Kaeko or Avesta or Rukenshin or any other "famous" player. Take your bullshit theories and GTFO. Seriously. Seriously. Seriously. Come back when you have PROOF that this might be different, other than "OMG they changed a word!!! This must have a deep and clever meaning!"

Toksyuryel · 09-22-2008, 07:50 AM

They changed enhances to augments on a lot of older gear too; conventional wisdom is that "enhances" means it increases the effect, while "augments" means it adds to or alters the effect somehow. There seem to be exceptions to this though, so who can say for sure wtf SE's ever thinking.

Rocl · 09-22-2008, 08:17 AM

I don't know why people worry and post about things that don't even pertain to them, jeez

Vyerz · 09-22-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexa

HEY GUISE EBONY PANELS AMIRITE?

Seriously, you're trying WAY TOO HARD! You're not gonne come up with a startling revelation. You're not gonna be the new Kaeko or Avesta or Rukenshin or any other "famous" player. Take your bullshit theories and GTFO. Seriously. Seriously. Seriously. Come back when you have PROOF that this might be different, other than "OMG they changed a word!!! This must have a deep and clever meaning!"

I think Kaekeninshinvesta is a pretty cool guy, eh _______ (old meme)

Chill bro, if you actually believe Kae / Ruke / Avesta are these superheros and everyone is trying to be them then you've got some low standards in life.

This thread can't be proven either way really but theorizing is never a bad idea (Or maybe it is, I should be writing a paper)

Agument seems more like it's being linked to another Action / JA / Weapon. It's kind of like Enspells, you're agumenting your sword with the property of an element. I dunno, seems like something to think about ( I could be pulling shit out of my ass, who knows)

Waef · 09-22-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miokomioko

Less people buying Alexandrite, the better... :3

Although they made Burtgang good for sure, so plenty of people will still buy them.

Apelila · 09-22-2008, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimkytaru

Mnk is crap anyway even if it enhance focus and dodge, only way it could be good, would be if it enhance dodge to the point where you could avoid 3-4 hits for sure and push focus to the limit of the timer.

Honestly there's so many stuff they could have add to mnk that would have been better, I dunno why they choose focus/dodge.

Is this a reverse whoosh? I can't tell

MNK weapon is far from crap, which is what I think this is trying to say. Instead of saying 'weapon' though you happened to throw the whole job into the statement. Silly rabbit.

I do agree that its far from the 'best' weapon though. However, calling it crap is like comparing apples to boils. Similarity doesn't mean same.

Asura_Zilla · 09-22-2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexa

HEY GUISE EBONY PANELS AMIRITE?

Seriously, you're trying WAY TOO HARD! You're not gonne come up with a startling revelation. You're not gonna be the new Kaeko or Avesta or Rukenshin or any other "famous" player. Take your bullshit theories and GTFO. Seriously. Seriously. Seriously. Come back when you have PROOF that this might be different, other than "OMG they changed a word!!! This must have a deep and clever meaning!"

Izzy · 09-22-2008, 09:12 AM

Poof, stop making fucking posts. Seriously fucking stop.

Eanae · 09-22-2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexa

HEY GUISE EBONY PANELS AMIRITE?

Seriously, you're trying WAY TOO HARD! You're not gonne come up with a startling revelation. You're not gonna be the new Kaeko or Avesta or Rukenshin or any other "famous" player. Take your bullshit theories and GTFO. Seriously. Seriously. Seriously. Come back when you have PROOF that this might be different, other than "OMG they changed a word!!! This must have a deep and clever meaning!"

^^^^^^

Therin · 09-22-2008, 10:36 AM

3/3 on shitty threads, Poof. Keep trying.

Mytiwar · 09-22-2008, 11:18 AM

I will agree that this is a rather worthless topic but I'll also mention that some people are gigantic dicks about it.

09-22-2008, 03:41 AM	#1 (permalink)
Gaea Incest Survivor Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pikeville, TN, USA Posts: 327	Augments vs Enhances I was poking around the mythic weapons description, and I clicked on a few I haven't actually checked because I just went by what people told me. Here's some things I noticed I thought I'd point out. The Vajra for Thief specifically says: Enhances "Sneak Attack" effect Enhances "Trick Attack" effect It doesn't say "Enhances "Sneak Attack" and "Trick Attack" The Glanzfaust for Monk says: Augments "Focus" and "Dodge" This suggests that there will be a relationship between Focus and Dodge. It doesn't say: Augments "Focus" Augments "Dodge" Now, I'm not saying I'm the first to notice this relationship and definitely not the fact that the word "Augment" is used but I think there's more to it than some people think. The main reason I'm making this post is because I've heard some people are disappointed with the mythic weapon for "their" job and I thought maybe I could give them a little bit of hope. I don't think monks should be so quick to dismiss this weapon that's for sure. Players have actually tested a couple of these augmentations and have found them to be quite a serious adjustment. This is especially true for Convert. This also points out that this is a much more serious "word" than "enhance". I'm proposing that this wording in Glanzfaust suggests a relationship between "Focus" and "Dodge" that will be imposed similar to a SAM's Hasso and Seigan. The difference is that I think if you use Focus, THEN Dodge, that they'll both stay up but Focus will wear off as normal. Dodge will stay for at least the full duration of it's recast (if not longer). If you use Dodge then Focus, then Dodge will wear off and Focus will stay on for at least the full duration of it's recast. In other words, you can only choose which one you want to have "full time" simply by making it the most recent ability you've used. Furthermore, there are other mythics (such as liberator) that seem to be a disappointment for Dark Knights. Well, with a word like "Augment" this might not just be something as simple as allowing you to drain a few more points of TP or STR. It might just straight double whatever you do absorb. It may also slow or negate the decay of absorbing stats. For example, if you absorb 65 TP from a mob you might get 130, even though the mob only lost 65 TP. If you absorb 15 STR from a mob, you might get +30 and the rate at which it decays might be lowered dramatically or may even stay on for several minutes and allow you to stack onto it with more absorbing (with a cap I'm sure). I can't even imagine what SE has in mind for "Berserk". Will it increase attack and lower defense even more? Will it have a duration as long as it's recast? Will it negate the defense penalty? Of course, I could be wrong and these weapons could be a great disappointment. But I think before some of you write them off completely, you should still do your Nyzul Isles, your Einherjars, and collect your Alexandrites. You might not even have to wait until someone gets the weapon to see if you want it. We might see some first hand testing at fanfest. So, don't be so quick to give up, and be nice to people who want to get them ^^ If you don't like the weapon after it's augments are confirmed, just sell the alexandrites (or give them to a friend), buy some goodies with your Einherjar ampoules, and cut your losses with Nyzul Isle Last edited by Gaea; 09-22-2008 at 03:49 AM.

09-22-2008, 05:34 AM	#7 (permalink)
Apelila Old Merits Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,085	Focus and dodge are probably just together to save line space. Most MNK's use them at the same time because they're on the same timer (pre merits). Unless its horribly obvious what it does, its going to be a pain in the ass to test too. __________________ Click here to email SE. It might not do anything, but at least you'll feel better knowing that someone has to sort through an AV question every time you send one. List of annoying crap for reference in case you run out of ideas.

09-22-2008, 07:40 AM	#15 (permalink)
Lexa Old Merits Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,159	HEY GUISE EBONY PANELS AMIRITE? Seriously, you're trying WAY TOO HARD! You're not gonne come up with a startling revelation. You're not gonna be the new Kaeko or Avesta or Rukenshin or any other "famous" player. Take your bullshit theories and GTFO. Seriously. Seriously. Seriously. Come back when you have PROOF that this might be different, other than "OMG they changed a word!!! This must have a deep and clever meaning!" __________________

09-22-2008, 08:17 AM	#17 (permalink)
Rocl Saint Rocl Von Quitter the 2nd Patron of Yin Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 143	I don't know why people worry and post about things that don't even pertain to them, jeez __________________ Another day older, and deeper in debt Saint Peter don't call me cause I can't go!

09-22-2008, 09:12 AM	#22 (permalink)
Izzy WASTE OF CURRENCY Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 3,552	Poof, stop making fucking posts. Seriously fucking stop. __________________ Izzy - FFXI - Phoenix BurningCosmossss DynamisBums

09-22-2008, 04:03 AM	#2 (permalink)
shinoniken Puppetmaster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 93	I'm sorry, I really don't see the point in this post, besides random speculation. If you had data or something to back it up it would be different, but this is just like people pulling AV theories out of their ass. Your TH thread is also of the same caliber, why not take it to newbie or KI, this is not advanced.

09-22-2008, 04:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
zard1977 Puppetmaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 73	The weapon descriptions in Japanese are basically just the same as before i.e. they did not come out with another term to differentiate "ënchances" and "augments". Also, they put SA and TA in 1 line for the japanese description of Vajra just like Glanzfaust. Basically the description of Vajra reads like "enhances effects of sneak attack & trick attack" in the japanese version. I wouldn't put too much thought into the the wordings.

09-22-2008, 04:08 AM	#5 (permalink)
miokomioko Chram Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Francisco/Santa Barbara Posts: 2,704	Less people buying Alexandrite, the better... :3

09-22-2008, 05:53 AM	#8 (permalink)
Gaea Incest Survivor Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pikeville, TN, USA Posts: 327	Yeah, I could be reading too much into it, I'm just trying to suggest people wait until after fanfest (where I'm sure we'll get to play with these new weapons) before they give up totally. A friend of mine who was interested in the Scythe pretty much said "screw that" and that's what I was looking up when I noticed the other stuff like with the Glansfaust and how some of the weapons say "enhances" and some of the weapons say "augments". I really do hope that "augment" does mean something a little more spectacular than "enhances" and it does make these weapons worth getting because I'd like to see people with them in the game. So many of the dynamis relics hardly ever get upgraded cause they are such garbage and the cost of currency and the time to get one just isn't worth it. I've never even seen a Claustrum, but I've seen plenty of Amanos, Ghorns, and Aegises. It would be nice to see a larger variety of relic weapons in the game such as Laevateinns, Tupsimatis, and Nirvanas. I'm wondering if the Nagi will make it so a Ninja doesn't die when it uses Mijin Gakure, similar to the way mobs don't die when they use it and maybe double the damage or something. I think whatever it does it'll be pretty neat. I'm not saying these weapons will definitely pan out to be more awesome than they look, I'm just saying people should at least still try to do Einherjar and Nyzul Isle, just in case they decide to get it later after some real testing is actually done. There's no harm in it, that's for sure.

09-22-2008, 06:26 AM	#9 (permalink)
Tarage Cerberus Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 413	You assume I care about anything other than -4 perp cost. Free Fenrir here I come!

09-22-2008, 06:39 AM	#11 (permalink)
Kimkytaru Fallso Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 170	Mnk is crap anyway even if it enhance focus and dodge, only way it could be good, would be if it enhance dodge to the point where you could avoid 3-4 hits for sure and push focus to the limit of the timer. Honestly there's so many stuff they could have add to mnk that would have been better, I dunno why they choose focus/dodge.

09-22-2008, 06:47 AM	#12 (permalink)
Gaea Incest Survivor Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pikeville, TN, USA Posts: 327	Well, I'm not trying to actually form a theory on what it all means, I'm just trying to suggest that our initial interpretations might be wrong and that the word "augment" might be serious business and people should wait until some actual testing is done and there's real confirmation on what this stuff means before they dismiss this weapon or insult someone who's working on it. (and and and, haha I need to learn how to make sentences but you get the point) Also, I don't think people should quit their Einherjar groups and Nyzul Isles just yet either. Anyone who wanted one of these weapons before they knew the stats should wait until we can confirm the actual stats before they decide against it. I'll be sad if I don't see any Liberators or Glansfausts like I never see any Claustrums Please don't give up on these weapon yet and please don't try to discourage people that are going to attempt to get one

09-22-2008, 06:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
Toksyuryel Member of Nikkei's Harem Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: <pos> Posts: 445	If it could make focus last for 5 minutes, that would be worth it IMO. +30 accuracy that you can rely on all the time can completely change how you do the rest of your gear and food for merits and salvage, and greatly improve your hit rate against more evasive mobs. A similar argument is made for elemental obis- sure it's the same bonus you could already get some of the time, but getting it all the time makes a huge difference. That said, I fully expect SE to simply have done something dumb and useless with it.

09-22-2008, 06:55 AM	#14 (permalink)
Gaea Incest Survivor Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pikeville, TN, USA Posts: 327	YOU GOTTA BELIIIIIIIEEEEEVE. keep hope alive!

09-22-2008, 07:50 AM	#16 (permalink)
Toksyuryel Member of Nikkei's Harem Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: <pos> Posts: 445	They changed enhances to augments on a lot of older gear too; conventional wisdom is that "enhances" means it increases the effect, while "augments" means it adds to or alters the effect somehow. There seem to be exceptions to this though, so who can say for sure wtf SE's ever thinking.

09-22-2008, 10:36 AM	#24 (permalink)
Therin Relic Horn Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3,060	3/3 on shitty threads, Poof. Keep trying. __________________ -Ω-Therin/Vandyr-Ω-

09-22-2008, 11:18 AM	#25 (permalink)
Mytiwar CoP Dynamis Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 257	I will agree that this is a rather worthless topic but I'll also mention that some people are gigantic dicks about it.